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TESTIMONY 

OF 

LUDWIG  C.  A.  K.  MARTENS 

TAKEN   BEFORE 

THE  JOINT  LEGISLATIVE  COMMITTEE  OF  THE 

STATE  OF  NEW  YORK  INVESTIGATING 

SEDITIOUS  ACTIVITIES 


CLAYTON  R.  LUSK,  CHAIRMAN 


F/af 


TESTIMONY  OF  LUDWIG  C.  A.  K.  MARTENS 


MEETING  OF  JOINT  LEGISLATIVE  COMMITTEE  OF  THE 

STATE  OF  NEW  YOEK  TO  INVESTIGATE 

SEDITIOUS  ACTIVITIES 

(CLAYTON  R.  LUSK,  Chairman.) 


CITY  HALL,  CITY  OF  NEW  YORK, 

SATURDAY,  November  15,  1919. 
Present: 

Assemblyman  Peter  P.  McElligott, 
Assemblyman  William  W.  Pellet, 
Assemblyman  Edmund  B.  Jenks. 

Appearances: 

Hon.  Frederick  R.  Rich,  Special  Deputy  Attorney-General, 
Hon.  Samuel  A.  Berger,  Deputy  Attorney-General, 
Archibald  E.  Stevenson,  Esq.,  Associate  Counsel. 

Acting  Chairman,  Assemblyman  Peter  P.  McElligott. 
The  Committee  was  called  to  order  at  11:25  a.  m. 


The  Chairman. —  The  Committee  will  come  to  order.  In  the 
absence  of  Senator  Lusk,  Chairman,  I  have  been  asked  to  preside 
at  this  meeting. 

The  Committee  issued  a  subpo3na  which  was  served  upon 
Ludwig  C.  A.  K.  Martens,  who  represents  himself  to  be  the  repre- 
sentative to  the  United  States  of  America  of  the  Russian  Socialist 
Federal  Soviet  Republic.  The  subprena  directed  the  attendance 
of  Mr.  Martens  to-day  at  this  meeting  and  also  required  him  to 
bring  with  him  certain  documents,  letters  and  other  papers  for 
the  inspection  of  this  Committee  in  connection,  with  our  investiga- 
tion. Mr.  Martens  sent  a  letter  to  this  Committee  and  it  will 

[3] 

775657 


be  read.    It  is  on  the  stationery  of  the  Russian  Socialist  Federal 
Soviet  Republic. 

Before  proceeding  with  the  reply  of  Mr.  Martens,  I  think  it 
well  to  show  that  a  subpoena  was  served  upon  Mr.  Martens,  and 
his  reply  to  the  subposna. 

Mr.  Berger. —  Mr.  Chairman,  I  call  Mr.  Wexler. 

ISIDOR  WEXLER,  having  been  duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 
By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  Will  you  give  us  your  full  name  ?    A.  Isidor  Wexler. 

Q.  And  you  are  a  corporal  in  the  State  Constabulary  of  the 
State  of  New  York?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  assigned  to  the  Legislative  Committee  investi- 
gating seditious  activities  in  the  State  of  New  York  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Did  you  on  the  14th  day  of  November,  1919,  at  110  West 
40th  street,  serve  a  subpoena  upon  Ludwig  C.  A.  K.  Martens  ?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Of  which  is  a  copy  (handing  paper  to  witness)  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir.  I  served  it  at  11 :25  a.  m. 

Q.  And  did  you  at  the  same  time  tender,  give  and  leave  with 
Martens  said  subpoena  and  two  dollars  and  a  half  in  cash  ?  A. 
Yes,  sir ;  it  was  pinned  right  on  the  subpoena. 

Q.  Where  was  this  subpoena  served?  A.  At  110  West  40th 
street,  room  303. 

Q.  That  is  in  this  borough  and  city?  A.  Yes,  this  borough 
and  city. 

Q.  How  did  you  know  that  the  person  you  served  with  that 
subpoena  was  the  Ludwig  C.  A.  K.  Martens  mentioned  therein? 
A.  I  have  seen  Martens  in  Madison  Square  Garden  at  one  0f  the 
meetings  there. 

Q.  That  was  on  June  20,  1919?     A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  heard  him  speak  there  ?  A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  was  intro- 
duced as  Mr.  Martens,  Ambassador  from  the  Soviet  Government 
in  Russia. 

Q.  And  the  person  you  served  was  the  same  person  you  saw 
there  as  Martens,  Ambassador  from  the  Soviet  Russian  Govern- 
ment ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


Mr.  Berger. —  I  will  read  the  subpoena  into  the  record : 

"  THE  PEOPLE  OF  THE  STATE  OF  NEW  YORK 
"To.Ludwig  C.  A.  K.  Martens,  110  West  40th  street, 
New  York  City: 

"  Greeting :  We  command  you,  That  all  business  and 
excuses  being  laid  aside  you  be  and  appear  in  your  own 
proper  person  before  the  Committee  of  the  Legislature  of 
the  State  of  New  York,  appointed  pursuant  to  the  resolution 
duly  passed  on  the  26th  day  of  March,  1919,  at  the  Alder- 
manic  Chamber,  in  the  City  Hall,  Borough  of  Manhattan, 
City  of  New  York,  on  the  5th  day  of  November,  1919,  at 
10 :30  o'clock  in  the  forenoon  of  that  day,  to  testify  and  give 
evidence  in  a  certain  investigation  now  pending  of  seditious 
activities  within  the  State  of  New  York,  and  bring  with  you 
the  following  book's,  papers  and  other  documents  now  in  your 
possession  and  control,  which  the  Committee  deems  relevant 
and  material  to  the  investigation,  the  check  books,  bank  books, 
books  of  account,  both  of  yourself,  and  of  the  Soviet  Bureau, 
located  at  110  West  40th  Street  and  elsewhere,  and  also  all 
documents,  letters  and  other  papers  received  by  you  and 
your  Bureau  from  Soviet  Russia,  as  well  as  copies  of  letters, 
documents  and  other  papers  sent  by  you  and  your  Bureau  to 
Soviet  Russia,  all  between  January  1st,  1919  and  this  date, 
also  copies  and  records  of  all  tso-called  passports  and  cre- 
dentials issued  by  you  to  the  agents  of  yourself  and  your 
Bureau,  and  for  a  failure  to  attend  you  will  be  deemed  liable 
to  the  penalties  prescribed  by  law  and  hereof  fail  not  at  your 
peril. 

Witness,  Hon.  Clayton  R.  Lusk,  Chairman  of  our  said 
Committee,  at  New  York  City,  this  14th  day  of  November 
in  the  year  of  our  Lord,  one  thousand  nine  hundred  and 
nineteen. 

(Signed)      Clayton  R.  Lusk, 

Chairman. 
(Signed)     Charles  D.  Newton, 

Attorney-General,  Counsel. 

A   true  copy." 

The  Chairman. —  Mr.  Berger,  does  this  require  him  to  be  here 
at  a  certain  hour? 


6 

Mr.  Berger. — It  requires  him  to  be  here  in  his  own  proper 
person  at  10:30  o'clock  in  the  forenoon  of  today  and  requires 
him  in  addition  to  bring  his  books  and  papers.  It  is  a  personal 
subpoena  and  subpoena  duces  tecum. 

The  Chairman. —  Was  that  communication  of  which  you  spoke 
received  by  the  Committee  today? 

Mr.  Berger. — Yes,  received  today. 

ARCHIBALD  E.  STEVENSON,  having  been  duly  sworn,  testified 
as  follows: 

By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  Mr.  Stevenson,  you  are  an  attorney  at  law?     A.  I 'am. 

Q.  And  Associate  Counsel  to  the  Joint  Legislative  Committee 
Investigating  Seditious  Activities,  are  you  not?  A.  I  am. 

*Q..  Do  vou  know  of  your  own  knowledge  whether  or  not 
Senator  Clayton  R.  Lusk,  Chairman  of  this  Committee,  signed 
a  subpoena  of  which  this  is  copy?  (Showing  witness  paper.)  A. 
He  did,  in  my  presence. 

Q.  In  your  presence  ?     A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  did  you  pursuant  to  the  instructions  given  you  by 
Senator  Lusk,  Chairman  of  this  Committee,  cause  that  subpoena 
to  be  served  upon  the  person  therein  named,  Ludwig  C.  A.  K. 
Martens  ?  A.  I  did.  I  received  instructions  from  Senator  Lusk 
at  the  Murray  Hill  Hotel  yesterday  morning  at  9:15,  to  take  this 
subpoena  and  cause  it  to  be  served  upon  the  said  Ludwig  C.  A.  K. 
Martens,  wherever  he  was  to  be  found. 

Q.  And  it  was  duly  served  as  you  have  heard  in  the  testimony 
this  morning  to  the  said  Martens  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Berger. —  Mr.  Chairman,  a  letter  was  received  this  morn- 
ing purporting  to  come  from  L.  Martens,  which,  with  permission, 
I  will  read  into  the  record. 

This  letter  is  on  the  letterhead  of  the  Russian  Socialist  Federal 
Soviet  Republic,  Bureau  of  the  Representative  in  the  United 
States  of  America.  Address:  World's  Tower  Building,  110  West 
Fortieth  street,  New  York,  November  15,  1919.  No.  D-10-9. 

"  Honorable  CLAYTON  R.  LUSK,,  Chairman,  Committee  of 
the  Legislature  of  New  York,  New  York  City. 

"  SIR. —  I  respectfully  decline  to  comply  with  that  part 
of  the  subpoena  served  by  your  order  upon  me  which  requires 


me  to  produce  '  all  documents,  letters,  and  other  papers,'  re- 
ceived by  me  and  my  Bureau  l  from  Soviet  Russia,  as  well 
as  copies  of  letters,  documents  and  other  papers  '  sent  by  me 
and  my  bureau  '  to  Soviet  Russia  '  also  copies  and  records  of 
all  so-called  passports  and  credentials  issued  '  by  me  to '  the 
agents  '  of  myself  and  my  Bureau.' 

"  1.  I  take  the  position  that  your  request  for  the  produc- 
tion of  copies  of  my  correspondence  with  '  Soviet  Russia ' 
which  is  evidently  intended  to  designate  the  Russian  Socialist 
Federal  Soviet  Republic,  which  I  have  the  honor  to  repre- 
sent in  the  United  States,  is  clearly  in  excess  of  the  jurisdic- 
tion of  your  Committee  and  without  warrant  in  law.  Under 
the  rules  of  international  law  the  communications  between 
my  government  and  myself  are  privileged  and  not  subject 
to  the  examination  by  the  government  of  any  other  nation  or 
State. 

"  2.  If  any  inquiry  into  my  relations  and  correspondence 
with  Soviet  Russia  were  warranted  by  law,  the  State  Depart- 
ment of  the  United  States  Government  would  be  the  sole 
authority  vested  with  jurisdiction  in  the  matter. 

"  3.  Your  Committee  was  created  for  a  definite  and  limited 
purpose,  which  cannot  under  any  circumstances  be  held  to 
include  matters  of  an  international  character. 

"  For  the  reasons  stated  I  hereby  decline  to  comply  with 
the  above-quoted  portions  of  your  subpoena. 

"  Respectfully, 

(Signed)     "  L.  MARTENS, 

"  Representative  in  the  United   States  of  America  of  the 
Russian  Socialist  Federal  Soviet  Republic." 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  it  might  be  wise  to 
have  the  corridors  of  the  building  searched. 

The  Chairman. —  I  was  about  to  make  the  request  that  the 
name  of  Mr.  Martens  be  called  to  see  whether  he  is  present.  Is 
Mr.  Martens  present  ? 

Mr.  Berger. —  Mr.  Wexler,  will  you  call  the  name  of  Mr. 
Martens  in  the  Aldermanic  Chamber,  across  the  hall,  and  in  all 
the  corridors.  Call  the  name  Ludwig  C.  A.  K.  Martens  out  loud. 

Mr.  Wexler. —  Yes,  sir. 


8 

•  Mr.  Stevenson. —  Mr.  Chairman,  I  think  it  is  well  to  have 
noted  on  the  record,  although  Mr.  Martens  has  presented  his  cre- 
dentials to  the  State  Department  at  Washington,  the  Russian 
Socialist  Federal  Soviet  Republic  has  up  to  this  time  not  been 
recognized  as  a  government,  and  it  has  been  publicly  stated  by 
the  officials  of  the  State  Department  that  Mr.  Martens  had  no 
standing  in  this  country  as  an  envoy  of  the  government;  and  it 
is,  therefore,  not  clothed  with  any  of  the  privileges  or  immunities 
of  a  foreign  representative. 

The  Chairman, —  Yes,  I  think  it  is  well  to  note  that.  1  under- 
stood from  Mr.  Martens,  when  he  appeared  before  this  Committee 
some  months  ago  that  he  had  sent  his  credentials  to  Washington 
to  the  Department  of  State,  and  that  the  only  notice  he  received 
in  connection  with  the  receipt  of  his  credentials  at  Washington 
was  a  newspaper  despatch  which  he  read  the  next  day  that  his 
papers  had  been  received ;  but  he  had  never  received  any  official 
recognition  either  of  the  receipt  of  his  communication  or  any 
further  action. 

( Mr.  Wexler  stepped  out  from  the  room,  and  after  a  short 
absence  returned.) 

Mr.  Wexler. —  No,  sir ;  he  is  not  in. 

Mr.  Berger. —  Have  you  called  his  name  out  loud  ? 

Mr.  Wexler. —  Yes,  sir ;  three  or  four  times. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Committee  will  note  it  is  now  twenty-two 
minutes  to  twelve,  on  November  15,  1919,  and  the  witness  has 
failed  to  appear. 

Mr.  Berger. —  May  I  ask  what  the  Committee  desires  done  in 
reference  to  this  witness  who  has  willfully,  deliberately  and  with- 
out reasonable  cause  failed  to  obey  the  subpoena  duly  issued  under 
the  hand  and  seal  of  the  Chairman  of  this  Committee  ? 

The  Chairman. —  The  Committee  is  empowered  with  certain 
rights  in  connection  with  its  work;  rights  under  the  legislative 
law  and  rights  under  the  penal  law  of  the  State  of  New  York. 
The  witness  can  be  punished  as  for  a  contempt;  and  it  is  really 
necessary  that  the  Committee  should  take  some  action  in  this 
regard,  because  it  is  a  defiance  of  the  powers  of  the  Committee, 
and  also  of  the  powers  of  the  State  of  New  York  through  its  Legis- 


9 

lature.  The  State  of  New  York  is  engaged  in  a  very  serious  effort 
just  now  to  preserve  the  government  of  the  State  of  New  York, 
as  well  as  the  government  of  the  United  States  of  America,  and 
the  inquiry  will  be  helpful  to  protect  the  government. 

The  witness  has  refused  to  produce  these  documents,  and 
besides  that,  he  has  refused  to  attend  personally.  He  has  given, 
something  in  the  nature  of  a  statement  for  his  failure  to  produce 
these  records,  but  1  do  think,  a.ad  I  respectfully  submit  to  the 
members  of  the  Committee,  that  his  excuse  is  not  sufficient  to 
satisfy  the  members  of  this  Committee.  If  he  were  recognized 
by  the  government  of  the  United  States  as  an  ambassador  of  this 
so-called  Russian  Republic,  he  would  have  certain  rights  and  cer- 
tain immunities  and  he  could  not  be  compelled  to  testify  or  pro- 
duce his  records ;  but  he  has  no  standing  of  this  kind,  and  he  has 
never  been  recognized  by  the  government.  It  is  really  a  subter- 
fuge, as  far  as  we  are  concerned,  on  his  part,  to  offer  an  explana- 
tion of  that  kind.  I  think  the  Committee  should  take  such  action 
as  the  law  authorizes  for  a  contempt  of  the  action  of  this  Com- 
mittee, and  the  Chair,  with  the  agreement  of  this  Committee,  will 
authorize  counsel  for  the  Committee  to  proceed  'in  accordance 
therewith. 

Mr.  Berger. — We  will,  sir. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Do  you  think  it  would  be  wise  to  adopt  a 
resolution  directing  counsel  to  prepare  such  papers  as  might  be 
necessary  ? 

Mr.  Berger. —  I  think  the  Chairman's  statement,  agreed  in  by 
the  other  members  of  the  Committee,  is  sufficient. 

Assemblyman  Pellet. —  I  make  the  motion  that  counsel  be 
directed  to  take  such  proceedings  as  will  be  necessary. 

Assemblyman  Jenks. —  I  second  the  motion. 

(The  motion  was  put  to  the  Committee  by  the  Chairman  and 
carried.) 

The  Chairman. —  The  Chair  directs  counsel  to  proceed  in 
accordance  with  the  action. 

Is  there  anything  else  for  the  Committee  to-day  ? 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  I  think  not. 


10 

The  Chairman. —  I  wished  to  state  further  that  the  Committee 
may  take  both  civil  and  criminal  action  in  this  regard,  as  pro- 
vided by  law. 

Mr.  Berger. —  In  view  of  the  fact  that  the  contempt  is  a  vio- 
lation of  both  the  Code  of  Civil  Procedure,  and  the  Code  of  Crim- 
inal Procedure. 

The  Chairman. — We  will  now  adjourn  to  meet  on  Monday 
afternoon  at  2  o'clock. 

At  11 :45  A.  M.  the  Committee  took  a  recess  to  Monday,  Novem- 
ber 17,  1919,  at  2 :00  P.  M. 


11 


MEETING  OF  JOINT  LEGISLATIVE  COMMITTEE  OF  THE 

STATE  OF  NEW  YORK  TO  INVESTIGATE 

SEDITIOUS  ACTIVITIES 


«•••-:<•  i  *V  I    fl   3&M)    '<      ••?:•••  '•:    ."  '•••>•" 

ALDERMANIC  CHAMBER,  CITY  HALL, 
XEW  YORK,  SATURDAY,  Nov.  15,  1919,  2.30  P.  M. 

Before : 

Assemblyman  Peter  P.  McElligott,  Acting  Chairman; 
Assemblyman  Pellet, 
Assemblyman  Jenks. 

Appearances: 

Samuel  A.  Berger,  Esq.,  Deputy  Attorney-General,  Associate 

Counsel. 
Archibald  E.  Stevenson,  Esq. 

In  attendance: 

Ludwig  C.  A.  K.  Martens. 


Acting  Chairman  McElligott. —  The  Committee  met  this  morn- 
ing at  10:30  A.  M.  A  subpoena  had  been  issued  for  the  appear- 
ance of  Mr.  Martens,  requiring  him  to  appear,  and  calling  for  the 
production  of  certain  records  by  him. 

Mr.  Martens  failed  to  appear.  Thereupon  an  application  was 
made  to  the  Supreme  Court  for  an  attachment.  The  application 
was  granted,  and  the  sheriff  served  the  attachment,  which  was  a 
bail  attachment  in  one  thousand  dollars.  Mr.  Martens  is  now 
present  before  the  Committee,  having  been  brought  there  by 
Deputy  Sheriff  Murray  of  the  county  of  New  York.  The  Com- 
mittee took  a  recess  until  2  o'clock  on  Monday.  If  Mr.  Martens 
is  willing  to  promise  the  Committee  that  he  will  attend  before 
the  Committee  at  that  time,  he  can  offer  bail  in  the  sum  of  one 
thousand  dollars. 

Mr.  Martens  came  forward  and  stated  that  he  would  be  present 
on  Monday  at  2  o'clock,  and  a  recess  was  accordingly  fixed  until 
that  time. 


12 

The  Acting  Chairman. —  Mr.  Martens,  you  are  required  to  be 
here  on  Monday  next  at  2  o'clock,  to  produce  with  you  the  books, 
papers,  documents,  records,  and  so  forth,  called  for  by  the  sub- 
poena. Will  you  be  here  at  that  time  with  those  papers? 

Mr.  Martens. —  Yes,  I  will. 

Whereupon,  at  3 :15  o'clock  p.  M.  the  Committee  took  a  recess 
to  Monday,  November  17,  1919,  at  2  P.  M. 


CITY  HALL,  NEW  YORK, 

MONDAY,  November  17,  1919,  2  p.  M. 
Present: 

Assemblyman  McElligott,  Chairman; 
Assemblyman  Pellet, 
Assemblyman  Burr. 

Appearances: 

Mr.  Samuel  A.  Berger,  Deputy  Attorney-General; 

Mr.    Archibald    E.    Stevenson,    Associate    Counsel   to    the 

Committee ; 
Mr.  Frederick  R.  Rich. 


The  'Chairman. —  The  meeting  will  come  to  order. 
Mr.  Berger. —  Mr.  Martens. 

LTJDWIG  C.  A.  K.  MARTENS,  called  as  a  witness,  being  first 
duly  sworn,  testified  as  follows : 

Examined  by  Mr.  Berger : 

Q.  What  is  your  full  name  ?  A.  Ludwig  Christian  Alexander 
K.  Martens. 

Q.  Where  do  you  live,  Mr.  Martens?  A.  572  Ocean  avenue, 
Brooklyn. 

Q.  And  what  is  your  office  address,  Mr.  Martens?  A.  110 
West  40th  Street. 

Q.  And  your  occupation?  A.  I  am  representing  the  Russian 
Socialist  Soviet  Republic. 

Q.  Where  were  you  born  ?    A.  In  Bachmut,  Russia. 

Q.  What  is  your  father's  name.     A.  Karl  Martens. 

Q.  Where  was  he  born  ?     A.  In  Germany. 

Q.  When  did  you  leave  Bachmut,  Russia?  A.  When  I  left 
Russia  ? 


14 

Q.  Yes ;  Bachraut,  Russia.    A.  I  was  two  years  old. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go  from  there?    A.  To  Kursk. 

Q.  Kursk,  Russia  ?    A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  how  old  were  you  when  you  left  Kursk,  Russia  ?  A. 
Seventeen  years  old. 

Q.  What  was  your  occupation  at  that  time?  A.  I  just  finished 
gymnasium  at  that  time. 

Q.  What  is  your  mother's  name?     A.  Christiana. 

Q.  Where  was  she  born  ?    A.  In  Lubek,  Germany. 

Q.  Were  you  in  Petrograd  at  one  time?     A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  lived  there  for  a  number  of  years  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Until  when  ?    A.  Until  1896. 

Q.  And  how  long  were  you  in  Petrograd  \    A.  Five  years. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  any  technical  instruction  of  any  kind  while 
in  Petrograd  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  kind?     A.   Technological  Institute. 

Q.  And  what  degree  did  you  receive  in  that  institute  ?  A.  Engi- 
neer. 

Q.  What  student  organizations  were  you  identified  with  while 
you  were  studying  in  Petrograd  ?  _A.  As  a  student  I  belonged  to 
an  organization  for  studying  Marxian  theories. 

Q.  Did  you  devote  considerable  time  to  a  study  of  the  Marxian 
theories  while  you  were  there  as  a  student?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Will  you  give  us  the  name  of  the  original  organizations  you 
were  connected  with  in  Russia  at  that  time?  A.  I  was  connected 
with  the  Union  for  Liberation  of  Russian  Working  Class. 

Q.  Any  others  ?     A.  Xo  others,  no. 

Q.  What  action  did  the  authorities  take  towards  you  with 
regard  to  your  connection  with  this  organization  or  any  other 
organization?  A.  I  was  arrested  in  1896  by  the  Russian  author- 
ities. 

Q.  What  was  the  out-  ome  of  that  arrest  ?  A.  I  was  deported 
from  Russia. 

Q.  To  where?     A.  To  Germany. 

Q.   To  what  part  of  Germany  ?     A.  Berlin. 

Q.  Did  you  meet  Xicolai  Lenine,  who  is  now  Premier  of 
Russia,  at  that  time  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  your  connection  with  him  ?  •  A.  We  belonged  to 
the  same  organization. 

0-  Was  your  association  with  him  of  an  intimate  character? 
A.  More  or  less. 

Q.  Quite  intimate  ?    A.  Yes,  I  knew  him. 


15 

Q.  What  year  was  that  you  were  deported  to  Germany  ?  A. 
1890  —  no,  I  beg  pardon.  18)00  I  was  arrested;  in  1899  I  was 
deported  to  Germany. 

Q.  Were  you  confined  in  prison  as  a  result  of  your  activities 
there  for  any  time  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  For  how  long  a  time?     A.  Three  years. 

Q.  What  happened  at  the  end  of  those  three  years  ?  A.  They 
deported  me  to  Germany. 

Q.  That  was  the  time  you  were  deported  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  year  was  that"  in  ?    A.   1899. 

Q.  Have  you  been  to  Russia  since  then  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  When  were  you  there?  A.  During  the  first  revolution,  in 
1905  and  '06. 

Q.  On  what  particular  charge,  what  specific  charge  were  you 
confined  in  prison  for  three  years  ?  A.  The  specific  charge  was  — 

Q.  What  was  the  charge  or  indictment  or  information?  A. 
Propaganda  directed  against  the  Czar's  government. 

Q.  Wasn't  it  in  connection  with  fomenting  strikes?  A.  ~No, 
not  exactly;  it  was  during  the  coronation  of  Czar  Nicholas  the 
Second,  we  made  political  propaganda  amongst  working  people  in 
Russia,  and  there  was  a-  big  strike  at  the  same  time  so  we  took 
part  in  the  strike  agitation  too. 

Q.  What  did  Nicolai  Lenine  have  to  do  with  fomenting  those 
strikes  ?  A.  Nicolai  Lenine  was  arrested. 

Q.  What  disposition  was  made  of  him  ?    A.  Sent  to  Siberia-. 

Q.  How  long  did  he  stay  in  Siberia  ?  A.  I  think  for  about  five 
years. 

By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  Who  succeeded  Lenine  in  the  leadership  of  the  particular 
group  of  which  he  was  the  head  after  his  arrest?  A.  Well,  the 
movement  was  not  concentrated  at  that  time.  So,  that  practically 
every  town  had  its  organization.  There  was  no  permanent  leader 
at  the. time. 

Q.  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  you  were  one  of  the  leaders  that  suc- 
ceeded Lenine  in  your  particular  locality?  A.  ~No. 

Q.  It  is  not  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  What  town  in  Germany  did  you  enter  after  your  deporta- 
tion from  Russia  succeeding  your  release?  A.  Berlin. 

Q.  I  think  you  mentioned  the  year  before,  but  let  us  have 
it  again,  please.  A.  1899. 


16 

Q.  What  did  you  do  when  your  entered  Germany,  Berlin?  A. 
I  was  made  a  soldier. 

Q.  A  soldier  in  the  German  army?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  serve  in  the  German  army?  A.  Two 
years. 

Q.  In  what  capacity?    A.  A  common  soldier. 

Q.  When  you  entered  Germany,  were  you  apprehended  by  the 
German  military  authorities?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  happened  immediately  thereafter  ?  A.  I  had  to  enter 
the  German  army. 

Q.  On  what  authority  did  the  German  military  authorities 
compel  you  to  serve  in  the  German  army  ?  A.  On  the  theory  that 
I  am  a  German ;  because  my  father  was  a  German  citizen. 

Q.  How  old  were  you  at  that  time  ?    A.  I  was  about  26. 

Q.  What  branch  of  the  service  did  you  •  erve  in  ?  A.  The  engi- 
neers. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  subject  to  court-martial  in  the  German 
army?  A.  What  is  that? 

Q.  Were  you  ever  subject  to  court-martial  in  the  German 
army  ?  A.  No,  sir ;  I  was  not. 

Q.  When  did  you  leave  the  German  military  service?  A. 
1901. 

<J.  Have  you  at  this  time  either  about  you.  or  elsewhere  avail- 
able any  of  your  military  papers  ?  A.  At  this  time  ? 

Q.  Yes.    A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  not  ?    A.  No,  sir ;  I  have  not. 

Q.  What  became  of  them  ?    A.  I  lost  them  somewhere. 

Q.  Where  were  you  stationed  in  Germany?     A.  In  Berlin. 

Q.  In  Berlin  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  when  you  received  your  discharge  from  the  German 
army,  what  did  you  do?  A.  I  entered  the  Polytechnic  Institute 
in  Charlottenberg,  Germany. 

Q.  The  Polytechnic  Institute  in  Charlottenberg?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  there  ?    A.  I  think  over  one  year. 

Q.  Were  you  engaged  in  any  revolutionary  activity  in  Ger- 
many ?  A.  Yes,  I  was. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  us  fully  and  in  detail  concerning  this  matter  ? 
A.  I  was  engaged  in  the  revolutionary  activities  as  far  as  it  con- 
cerned Russia.  The  German  movement  did  not  interest  me.  I 
was  always  in  communication  with  Russian  revolutionary  organi: 
zations. 


17 

Q.  Who  co-operated  with  you  in  these  activities  directed 
towards  Russia  ?  A.  Russian  organizations  which  were  in  Berlin 
and  some  other  parts  of  Germany. 

Q.  And  you  were  in  constant  communication  with  revolu- 
tionaries in  Russia  while  you  were  in  Germany  ?  A.  Yes,  I  was. 

Q.  And  could  you  send  propaganda  from  Germany  into  Rus- 
sia? A.  Yes. 

Q.  'Covering  a  period  of  how  many  years  ?    A.  Five  years. 

Q.  And  who  prepared  this  propaganda  ?  A.  It  was  prepared 
partly  in  Switzerland  and  partly  in  France. 

Q.  But  you,  yourself,  knew  at  all  times  the  contents  of  the 
various  documents  and  papers  that  you  sent  from  Germany  into 
Russia,  and  you  knew  it  was  revolutionary  propaganda  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  After  you  left  Charlottenberg,  where  did  you  go,  MT.  Mar- 
tens ?  A.  I  went  to  Hamburg. 

Q.  In  what  year  was  that  ?  A.  In  1903.  I  stayed  in  Ham- 
burg up  until  1905. 

Q.  Did  you  still  continue  your  revolutionary  activities  in  Ham- 
burg? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  did  you  still  continue  sending  propaganda  from  Ham- 
burg into  Russia  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  was  Lenine  at  that  time  ?    A.  In  Brooklyn. 

Q.  Were  you  in  communication  with  him?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  you  at  that  time  in  contact  and  communication  with 
Brownstein,  now 'known  as  Leon  Trotzky?  A.  Yes,  I  was. 

Q.  Where  was  Trotzky  at  that  time?  A.  He  was  in  Berlin 
several  times,  and  mostly  in  Switzerland. 

Q.  What  date  would  you  fix.  for  that,  Mr.  Martens?  A.  I 
think  the  first  time  I  met  Trotzky  was  1901  in  Berlin. 

Q.  1901  ?    A.  1901. 

Q.  Where  did  you  meet  him  thereafter?     A.  1903  and  1905. 

Q.  Where,  Mr.  Martens?    A.  In  Germany;  in  Berlin,  mostly. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  meet  Trotzky,  alias  Brownstein,  in  London? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  year  was  that  ?    A.  In  London  —  I  never  met  him  — 
excuse  me,  but  I  met  him  in  New  York. 

Q.  Where  did  you  meet  him  in  New  York?    A.  In  1917. 

Q.  1917  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  was  his  occupation  in  New  York  at  that  time?  A. 
He  was  editing  the  Russian  paper  called  Novy  Mir. 


18 

Q.  Were  you  connected  with  that  paper!    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  what  capacity  ?  A.  I  was  on  the  editorial  board  of  this 
paper. 

Q.  And  this  paper  is  still  being  published  in  New  York  City  at 
this  time?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a  man  named  Bucharin  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  he  on  the  editorial  staff  of  Novy  Mir?     A.     Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  position  does  Bucharin  at  this  time  hold  in  the  Fed- 
erated Soviet  Republic  which  you  represent  here?  A.  He  is  an 
editor  of  a  newspaper  called  Pravda. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  publication  published  in  this 
city  called  Class  Struggle  ?  A.  More  or  less ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  know  it  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  is  a  publication  gotten  out  in  Brooklyn?     A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  an  issue  in  May  of  this  year  which  contained 
an  article  by  Bucharin?  A.  I  do  not  recall  the  article,  but  prob- 
ably it  was  published. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  an  article  in  that  publication  called  Class 
Struggle  entitled  "  The  Church  in  the  Soviet  State,"  by  Bucharin; 
do  you  recall  that  ?  A.  Yes,  I  recall  it. 

Q.  And  the  man  that  wrote  that  article  is  the  Mr.  Bucharin 
who  holds  this  official  position  in  Russia,  and  who  is  on  the  edi- 
torial staff  of  Novy  Mir  in  this  city?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  publication  called  "The  Revolu- 
tionary Age  "  ?  A.  Very  little. 

Q.  You  know  there  is  such  a  publication?  A.  Yes,  I  know 
there  is  such  a  publication. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  issue  of  July  19,  1919,  containing  an  article 
by  the  same  Bucharin?  A.  I  do  not  remember  seeing  it. 

Q.  What  part  did  you  take  in  the  Russian  revolution  in  1905? 
A.  We  organized  the  Russian  workingmen. 

Q.  What  particular  part  did  you  personally  take  in  that  revolu- 
tion? A.  As  an  organizer. 

Q.  As  one  of  the  organizers  ?    A.  As  one  of  the  organizers. 

Q.  How  long  did  your  activities  as  an  organizer  continue? 
A.  1905  and  1906. 

Q.  And  how  did  you  get  revolutionary  propaganda  from  Ger- 
many to  Russia?  A.  Oh,  we  had  many  ways  to  get  it  in. 

Q.  Will  you  describe  the  various  ways  through  which  you 
succeeded  in  getting  this  propaganda  from  Germany  into  Russia  ? 
A.  We  smuggled  it  in. 


19 

Q.  Do  you  recall  the  names  of  any  persons  engaged  in  that 
particular  activity  ?  A.  Xo,  I  don't  recall ;  so  many. 

Q.  Are  any  of  them  here  in  this  country  at  the  present  time? 
A.  Not  that  I  know  of. 

Q.  Did  you  become  involved  with  the  German  authorities  as 
result  of  your  activities  in  that  direction  ?  A.  No. 

Q.  Not  that  you  know  off    A.  No. 

Q.  Were  you  under  observation  at  that  time  of  the  German 
authorities,  as  far  as  you  know!  A.  Not  to  my  knowledge,  but  I 
suspected  that  I  was. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  you  were  not  interfered  with  by  the 
German  authorities  ?  A.  I  beg  your  pardon. 

Q.  I  say,  as  a  matter  of  fact  you  were  not  interfered  with  by 
the  German  authorities  ?  A.  No,  I  was  not. 

Q.  When  were  you  last  in  Switzerland,  Mr.  Martens  ?  A.  1906, 
I  was  there. 

Q.  And  when  were  you  there  for  the  first  time?  A.  Oh,  for  a 
short  stay  in  1903  and  in  1906  I  was  there  for  .a  couple  of  months. 

Q.  What  was  your  particular  purpose,  if  I  may  ask,  in  going 
to  Switzerland  in  1903!  A.  To  see  friends. 

Q.  Was  Nicolai  Lenine  one  of  them?  A.  Yes,  he  was  one  of 
them. 

Q.  And  what  was  your  purpose  in  seeing  Lenine  at  that  time  in 
Switzerland  ?  A.  To  discuss  the  situation. 

Q.  Which  situation  ?    A.   The  Russian  revolutionary  situation. 

Q.  And  as  a  result  of  your  discussion  with  Lenine,  what  did 
you  do?  A.  Well,  I  continued  to  do  my  usual  business. 

Q.  Just  what?  A.  I  can  not  quite  follow  your  question,  Mr. 
Berger. 

Q.  Well,  you  say  you  continued  to  do  your  usual  business,  now 
I  ask  you  what  that  was.  A.  I  had  to  earn  my  living. 

Q.  Well,  we  all  like  to  do  that  and  we  all  do  that,  but  in  what 
particular  way  did  you  earn  your  living  ?  A.  I  was  an  engineer 
connected  with  a  large  German  firm  in  Hamburg. 

Q.  And  did  you  go  to>  see  Lenine  in  connection  with  your  being 
an  engineer  for  a  large  firm  in  Hamburg  ?  A.  Certainly  not. 

Q.  Well  then,  as  a  result  of  your  seeing  Lenine  in  Switzer- 
land at  that  time,  will  you  tell  us  specifically  what  you  did  and 
where  you  did  it  ?  A.  The  question  is  too  broad  and  general  for 
me  to  answer,  Mr.  Berger. 

Q.  Well,  I  will  try  to  separate  it.  You  saw  Lenine  in  1903 
in  Switzerland?  A.  Yes. 


Q.  You  went  there  for  a  specific  purpose  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  was  that  specific  purpose?  A.  To  discuss  the  situa- 
tion in  the  Russian  Social  Democratic  party.  They  had  split  up 
into  Mensheviks  and  'Bolsheviks  and  there  were  a  thousand  and 
one  questions  to  discuss. 

Q.  Which  particular  group  of  that  party  were  you  allied  with  ? 
A.  The  Bolsheviki. 

Q.  And  you  thereafter  did  something  as  a  result  of  your  inter- 
view with  Lenine,  didn't  you  ?  A.  Not  specifically,  unless  I  cor- 
responded — 

Q.  Well,  what  did  you  do  in  general?  A.  Again,  I  was  in- 
terested in  the  Russian  movement,  and  I  was  always  connected 
with  it. 

Q.  You  were  a  member  of  the  Central  Revolutionary  Com- 
mittee at  that  time  ?  A.  No,  I  was  not. 

Q.  You  were  subsequent  to  that  time?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  what  year  ?  A.  Excuse  me.  I  was  never  in  the  Central 
Committee,  but  I  was  closely  connected. 

Q.  You  were  one  of  the  prime  movers?  A.  No,  I  would  not 
call  it  so. 

Q.  Well,  how  deep  was  your  interest  in  the  movement  ?  A. 
How  deep?  Well,  gentlemen,  the  Russian  revolution  was  my 
life,  I  can  tell  you. 

Q.  Now,  you  went  to  Switzerland  in  1905  again  ?    A.  In  1906. 

Q.  And  what  was  your  purpose  in  going  to  Switzerland  in 
1906  ?  A.  Well,  I  wanted  to  take  a  rest,  and  I  stayed  about  a 
couple  of  months. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Lenine  at  that  time  ?  A.  No,  not  at  that  time. 
I  saw  Plekhanov. 

Q.  Who  was  Plekhanov?     A.  A  leader  of  the  Mensheviks. 

Q.  Would  you  say  that  the  propaganda  you  were  engaged  in 
during  the  years  you  have  mentioned  was  of  a  provocative  kind  ? 
A.  What  do  you  call  a  provocative  kind  ? 

Q.  Well,  that  word  has  a  pretty  well  accepted  meaning.   A.  No. 

Q.  Well,  of  a  kind  to  stir  up  strife,  discontent  and  possible 
bloodshed  ?  A.  Well,  my  propaganda  was  —  now,  gentlemen,  tho 
Russian  revolution  is  not  a  thing  of  the  past  couple  of  years,  the 
revolution  dates  back  50  years,  and  many  of  the  best  Russian 
men  were  in  it  and  ended  their  lives  in  Siberia,  so  the  revolu- 
tionary propaganda  of  ours  would  be  of  no  provocative  character, 
because  the  Czar's  government  provoked  the  revolution  and  ~we 
had  only  to  defend  ourselves  and  our  liberty  as  a  people. 


21 

Q.  Did  jour  propaganda  attack  the  bourgeoisie  as  well  as  the 
aristocracy?  A.  We  were  interested  in  propaganda  among  the 
working  class. 

Q.  Will  you  answer  the  question  as  I  have  put  it?  A.  Oh, 
yes. 

Q.  And  your  propaganda  has  consistently  from  the  time  that 
you  were  first  engaged  in  it  until  the  very  present  time  been 
directed  against  the  bourgeoisie,  as  well  as  the  aristocracy?  A. 
It  was  a  class  conscious  propaganda. 

Q.  And  with  which  particular  class  exclusively  did  you  repre- 
sent and  ally  yourself?  A.  The  working  class  and  the  peasants. 

Q.  And  that  was  naturally  directed  also  against  the  bourgeoisie, 
the  petty  shopkeeper  and  tradesman  ?  A.  No,  I  should  not  say 
so,  the  capitalist  class. 

Q.  Well,  just  what  do  you  mean  by  the  capitalist  class  ?  A. 
The  capitalist  class  is  the  class  which  is  living  on  the  producing 
labor  of  other  people. 

The  Chairman. —  How  far  down,  do  you  go  in  your  classifica- 
tion of  capitalists  ?  Where  would  you  stop  and  where  would  you 
begin? 

The  Witness. —  Well,  that  is  rather  a  metaphysical  question, 
Mr.  Chairman,  I  could  not  make  exactly  a  definition  of  where  the 
capitalist  starts  and  the  workmgman  finishes  ? 

The  Chairman. — According  to  your  conception  who  would  be  a 
capitalist  ? 

The  Witness. —  Well,  here  in  this  country  it  would  be  J.  P. 
Morgan,  he  would  be  a  capitalist ;  some  profiteer  would  be  a 
capitalist. 

The  Chairman. —  Well,  would  you  term  a  man  who  owned  real 
estate  a  capitalist,  who  got  an  income  from  real  estate  ? 

• 

The  Witness. — Oh,  well,  in  some  occasions,  yes. 

The  Chairman. —  Suppose  a  man  owned  his  own  house,  lived 
in  the  house  himself,  or  on  the  premises,  and  had  a  tenant  ? 

The  Witness. —  It  does  not  make  him  a  capitalist. 

The  Chairman. —  Well  now,  who  would  you  call  a  capitalist  ? 

The  Witness. — A  man  who  is  living  on  the  producing  labor  not 
his  own. 


The  Chairman. —  Well,  how  arc  you  going  to  pick  out  that 
man  ?  How  are  you  going  to  tell  ? 

The  Witness. —  Well,  a  man  who  has  a  thousand  men  working 
for  him  and  is  employing  them  and  living  on  the  labor  of  those 
men,  he  is  a  capitalist. 

By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  Suppose  he  has  ten  men  employed  ?     A.  The  same  thing. 

Q.  Suppose  he  has  two  men  in  his  employ,  would  he  be  a 
capitalist  ?  A.  Not  at  all. 

Q.  Well,  do  you  draw  the  line  at  ten?  A.  I  draw  no  line  at 
all.  Sometimes  he  might  have  one  hundred  workingmen  employed 
and  still  not  be  a  capitalist. 

The  Chairman. —  Suppose  you  take  a  horseshoer  who  has  one 
or  two  men  working  for  him  in  a  shop,  would  you  call  him  a 
capitalist  ? 

The  Witness. —  Probably  I  would. 

The  Chairman. —  So  that  your  system  would  class  all  as 
capitalists  from  the  person  who  has  two  or  three  men  in  his 
employ  upward  ?  Is  that  your  conception  ? 

The  Witness. —  No,  Mr.  Chairman.  W7hen  do  you  call  a  man 
a  bald  man  ?  How  many  hairs  does  he  have  to  have  on  his  head 
to  be  called  a  bald  man  ? 

By  Mr.  Berger : 

Q.  After  you  left  Switzerland  the  second  time,  where  did  you 
go?  A.  I  went  to  England. 

Q.  What  particular  city  in  England?    A.  London. 

Q.  When  was  that  ?     A.   1906. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a  passport  ?  A.  No,  I  had  no  particular  pass- 
port 

Q.  When  you  say  you  had  no  "  particular  passport,"  what  do 
you  mean  —  did  you  have  any  passport  ?  A.  No,  I  want  to  say 
according  to  the  laws  of  England  no  passports  were  required. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go  from  England  ?  A.  I  stayed  in  England 
until  1916. 

Q.  And  where  did  you  go  from  there  ?    A.  To  New  York. 

Q.  To  New  York  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 


23 

Q.  Didn't  you  go  back  to  Germany?    A.  No,  I  did  not. 

Q.  Had  you  been  in  New  York  before  that?    A.  Yes,  I  was. 

Q.  When?  A.  For  a  short  period  in  1906,  I  think.  It  was 
the  time  before  I  went  to  England. 

Q.  During  what  years  were  you  in  England?  A.  From  1906 
—  until  1906." 

Q.  Now  you  were  there  following  the  outbreak  of  the  great 
war?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  how  did  you  register  in  England;  as  a  subject  or 
citizen  of  what  nation  ?  A.  Of  Germany. 

Q.  And  you  were  truthful  in  so  registering,  weren't  you?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  you  were  as  a  matter  of  fact  in  1916  a  German  sub- 
ject, weren't  you  ?  A.  Technically,  yes,  I  was. 

Q.  Were  you  or  weren't  you  ?    A.  Yes,  I  was. 

Q.  You  then  came  to  this  country?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  what  month  in  1916  ?    A.  I  think  it  was  January,  1916. 

Q.  In  January  of  1916  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  did  you  not  execute  and  sign  a  customs  declaration? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  I  did. 

Q.  When  you  entered  this  country?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  January,  1916  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  citizenship  did  you  claim  at  that  time?  A.  German 
citizenship  —  I  was  forced  to  claim  it. 

Q.  What  do  you  mean,  you  were  forced  to  claim  German  citi- 
zenship? Who  in  this  country  forced  you  to  claim  that?  A. 
Nobody  forced  me,  but  I  came  with  papers  that  forced  me  to  say  I 
was  a  German  citizen  technically. 

Q.  Were  those  papers  genuine  or  did  they  set  forth  the  fact  ? 
A.  Certainly,  I  had  to  come  with  permission  of  the  British  gov- 
ernment to  the  United  States. 

Q.  Then  as  a  matter  of  fact  you  were  not  forced  in  this  country 
to  claim  German  citizenship  ?  A.  No,  I  could  not  claim  that  if 
my  papers  said  that. 

Q.  Were  your  papers  correct  or  incorrect?  A.  Absolutely 
incorrect, —  and  permit  me  to  explain. 

Q.  You  made  the  statement  when  you  came  to  this  country 
that  you  claimed  German  citizenship?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  you  tell  us  you  arrived  with  valid,  truthful  papers 
which  set  forth  the  fact  that  you  were  of  German  citizenship? 


A.  Permit  me  to  explain. 


Q.  Explain  it.  A.  When  I  was  registering  in  England  I 
claimed  to  he  a  Russian  citizen. 

Q.  Didn't  you  tell  us  a  minute  ago  you  claimed  to  be  a  German 
citizen  ?  A.  I  didn't  claim  it,  I  claimed  to  be  a  Russian  citizen, 
but  the  British  authorities  registered  me  as  a  German  citizen 
because  I  could  not  produce  sufficient  papers.  That  is  the  reason 
I  was  so  registered  in  England  and  that  is  the  reason  I  received 
certain  papers  to  America,  where  I  had  to  claim  to  be  a  German 
citizen. 

Q.  What  was  the  name  of  .the  person  in  England  to  whom  you 
claimed  to  be  a  German  citizen  and  not  a  Russian  citizen?  A. 
With  all  the  persons  which  which  I  had  to  deal. 

Q.  At  all  events,  the  British  authorities  were  not  satisfied  with 
your  claims  ?  A.  They  were  not  satisfied  with  my  papers  but 
were  satisfied  with  my  claims. 

Q.  Didn't  you  have  a  German  military  passport?  A.  I  didn't 
have  any. 

Q.  Why  didn't  they  put  you  down  as  a  citizen  of  Brazil? 
A.  Because  they  asked  where  my  father  came  from  and  I  told 
them  from  Germany. 

Q.  And  you  told  them  you  had  served  in  the  German  army? 
A.  Yes,  I  told  them. 

Q.  And  the  authorities  felt  satisfied  you  should  be  classed  as 
a  German  citizen?  A.  No,  the  authorities  felt  satisfied  to  put 
down  a  Russian,  but  only  technically  a  German  citizen. 

Q.  Then  when  you  came  to  this  country  you  continued  setting 
forth  the  fact  that  you  were  a  German  citizen,  didn't  you  ?  A.  I 
never  had  occasion  to  claim  it. 

Q.  What  statement  did  you  make  on  your  custom  house  declara- 
tion when  you  entered  this  country  ?  A.  The  usual  declaration. 

Q.  That  you  were  a  citizen  of  what  country  ?    A.  Germany. 

Q.  Did  you  register  as  an  alien  enemy  when  you  entered  this 
country?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  at  any  time  when  you  were  in  this  country  ?    A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  At  any  time  while  this  country  was  at  war  with  Germany  ? 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  In  spite  of  the  fact  you  entered  as  a  German  citizen?  A. 
In  spite  of  the  fact  that  I  entered  as  a  German  citizen. 

Q.  What  citizenship  do  you  now  claim?  A.  Russian  citizen- 
ship. 


25 

Q.  How  did  you  acquire  Kussian  citizenship?  A.  I  applied 
for  Russian  citizenship  papers  since  the  outbreak  of  the  Russian 
revolution. 

Q.  When?    A.  In  March,  1917. 

Q.  You  have  not  left  this  country  since  you  last  came  here? 
A.  No,  I  did  not  leave. 

Q.  When  did  you  receive  notice  of  your  having  become  a  Rus- 
sian citizen,  Mr.  Martens?  A.  I  think  May,  1917,  or  maybe 
June,  1917. 

Q.  What  sort  of  notice  did  you  get?  A.  That  my  request  is 
granted  and  I  was  made  officially  a  Russian  citizen. 

Q.  Was  that  an  official  notice?     A.  No,  from  my  friends. 

Q.  It  came  from  your  aunt  or  your  sister  ?    A.  My  sister. 

Q.  Now,  what  prerequisite  does  the  Russian  Soviet  government 
require  to  the  attainment  of  citizenship  on  the  part  of  a  person 
who  is  not  in  Russia  at  the  time  the  claim  is  made  ?  A.  I  could 
not  tell  you,  gentlemen,  what  was  required,  because  I  am  not 
versed  in  those  matters.  The  only  thing  I  could  tell  you  is  when 
I  was  a  boy  of  about  seventeen  years  I  applied  for  Russian  citizen 
papers  from  the  Russian  government  and  General  von  Wahl 
refused  to  grant  me  citizenship  papers  because  he  wanted  me 
first  to  serve  in  the  German  army  and  then  to  become  a  Russian 
citizen,  so  I  was  refused  in  1917  on  account  of  not  having  served 
in  the  German  army.  Second,  my  request  was,  as  I  told  you, 
after  the  outbreak  of  the  Russian  revolution,  and  I  really  don't 
know  what  kind  of  laws,  I  don't  suppose  any  specific  laws  were 
in  existence, —  anyhow,  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  to  prevent  any  resident  of  this  country  at 
this  time  from  acquiring  Russian  citizenship  in  the  same  way  that 
you  acquired  it  ?  A.  Nothing,  only  that  he  be  an  honest  man. 

Q.  So  that  any  person  living  in  the  United  States  who  is  ad- 
mittedly an  honest  man  can  become  a  citizen  of  Soviet  Russia 
by  simply  proving  that  he  is  an  honest  man  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  There  is  no  requirement  that  it  be  made  public  in  this 
country,  is  there  ?  A.  I  beg  pardon. 

Q.  There  is  no  requirement  imposed  by  the  Bolshevist  govern- 
ment that  that  person  make  that  fa«t  known  to  this  country? 
A.  No. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  how  many  individuals  in  the  United 
States  at  the  present  time  have  acquired  citizenship  in  the  Soviet 
Republic  in  a  similar  manner?  A.  Nobody. 


26 

Q.  There  is  nothing  to  prevent  their  doing  that  ?  A.  There  is 
nothing  to  prevent  their  doing  that. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Would  they  have  to  consult  you 
as  authority  for  that  application  to  be  made? 

The  Witness. —  No,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  nothing  to  do  with 
the  making  of  citizens  in  Russia.  It  is  not  my  business.  They 
have  to  apply  to  the  central  authorities. 

Mr.  Berger. —  I  feel  it  necessary  to  emphasize  at  this  point  that 
this  plan  of  changing  citizenship  which  is  called  to  our  attention 
by  the  witness  at  this  time,  and  which  was  admitted  by  him,  if 
it  be  put  into  effect  generally  and  recognized  by  international  law, 
would  enable  the  foreign  element  to  surrender  their  citizenship 
to  this  country  without  any  declaration ;  so  it  would  be  impossible 
for  us  at  any  time  in  this  country  to  know  who  is  an  American 
citizen  or  who  is  a  citizen  of  the  Soviet  Republic  of  Russia. 

Mr.  Martens. —  Mr.  Berger,  permit  me  to  make  a  few  remarks. 
Mr.  Berger  is  a  lawyer,  and  he  probably  knows,  that  according  to 
American  law,  if  a  man  leaves  a  country  and  stays  in  a  country 
more  than  five  years,  he  loses  his  citizenship,  without  making 
any  declaration  to  that  effect ;  is  it  not  so  ? 

The  Chairman. —  Yes. 

The  Witness. —  This  fact  about  citizenship  has  nothing  to  do 
with  any  propaganda,  or  any  facilitating  of  propaganda,  as  Mr. 
Berger  wants  to  make  you  believe. 

The  Chairman. —  Mr.  Berger,  you  claim  the  procuring  of 
citizenship  in  this  peculiar  way,  and  that  is  why  it  occurs  to  you 
that  there  might  be  a  general  method  of  acquiring  citizenship 
with  a  residence  here  ? 

Mr.  Berger. —  The  point  I  desire  to  emphasize  is  this :  The 
witness  has  testified  if  a  man  is  admittedly  honest,  and  expresses 
a  desire  and  an  intention  of  becoming  a  citizen  of  Soviet  Russia, 
his  mere  declaration  or  sayso  is  sufficient. 

The  Chairman. —  Must  not  that  be  conveyed  to  the  government 
in  some  way?  Must  not  that  be  explained  to  the  other  govern- 
ment? 

Mr.  Berger. —  Did  you  suppose  it  was  explained  on  the  part  of 
this  government  ?  But  our  country  knows  nothing  about  it ;  and 
on  that  theory  we  could  not  know  how  many  individuals  in  this 


27 

country  who  claim  American  citizenship;  either  by  birth  or 
naturalization,  may  at  the  same  time  be  citizens  of  Soviet  Russia. 
That  is  the  point  I  want  to  emphasize. 

Assemblyman  Pellet. —  And  the  man  would  not  have  to  go  to 
Russia  to  become  a  citizen  ? 

Mr.  Berger. —  That  is  correct.  He  could  live  here  and  claim 
protection  of  the  American  citizenship,  and  at  the  same  time  be 
a  citizen  of  Russia  under  that  method. 

The  Witness. —  It  is  not  true,  Mr.  Berger. 

Mr.  Berger. —  Mr.  Stevenson  at  this  point  would  like  to  ask  a 
few  questions  of  Mr.  Martens. 

By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  Mr.  Martens,  you  are  a  member  of  the  Russian  Communist 
Party,  are  you  not  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  party  is  the  party  which  is  now  in  control  of  the 
government  of  Soviet  Russia,  is  it  not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Mr.  Nicholas  Lenine  is  the  premier,  is  he  not  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  Mr.  Leon  Trotzky  is  the  Minister  of  War?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  That  is  the  Communist  Party  has  issued  a  call  for  what 
is  known  as  the  Third  International,  is  it  not  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  call  was  made  in  the  form  of  a  manifesto,  was  it 
not?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  was  signed  by  Charles  Rakovsky,  Nicholas  Lenine  — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  B.  Zinoviev,  Leon  Trotzky,  Fritz  Platten?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Mr.  Chairman,  I  wish  to  read  from  a  trans- 
lation of  this  manifesto  which  was  published  on  May  10,  1919, 
the  issue  of  "  The  Revolutionary  Age,"  in  Boston. 

The  Chairman. — All  right,  proceed.  Is  that  a  translation  in 
English? 

Mr.  Stevenson. — Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman. — What  is  the  original  ? 

Mr.  Stevenson, — Russian. 


28 

By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  That  is  in  Russian,  isn't  it?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Stevenson. — (Reading) — "To  the  proletariat  of  all  coun- 
tries ! 

"  Seventy-two  years  have  gone  by  since  the  Communist  Party  of 
the  World  proclaimed  its  program  in  the  form  of  the  Manifesto 
written  by  the  greatest  teachers  of  the  proletarian  revolution,  Karl 
Marx  and  Frederick  EngeLs.  Even  at  that  early  time," —  and 
then  it  goes  on  to  say:  "For  a  long  span  of  years  Socialism  pre- 
dicted the  inevitableness  of  the  imperialistic  war ;  it  perceived  the 
essential  cause  of  this  war  in  the  insatiable  greed  of  the  possessing 
classes  in  both  camps  of  capitalist  nations." 

And,  further  on,  it  says:  "And  the  German  Socialist  patriots, 
who  in  August  1914  proclaimed  the  diplomatic  White  Book  of 
the  Hohenzolleni  as  the  holiest  gospel  of  the  people,  today,  in 
vulgar  sycophancy,  join  with  the  Socialists  of  the  Entente  coun- 
tries in  accusing  as  arch-criminals  the  deposed  German  monarchy 
which  they  formerly  served  as  slaves.  In  this  way  they  hope  to 
erase  the  memory  of  their  own  guilt  and  to  gain  the  good  will  of 
the  visitors.  But  alongside  the  dethroned  dynasties  of  the  Roman- 
offs, Hohenzollerns  and  Hapsburgs,  and  the  capitalistic  cliques 
of  these  lands,  the  rulers  of  France,  England,  Italy  .and  the  United 
States  stand  revealed  in  the  light  of  unfolding  events  and  diplo- 
matic disclosures  in  their  immeasurable  vileness." 

And  then  it  proceeds  further  in  describing  the  duties  and 
requirements  of  the  Communist ;  it  says : 

"Civil  war  if  forced  upon  the  laboring  classes  by  their  arch- 
enemies. The  working  class  must  answer  blow  for  blow,  if  it  will 
not  renounce  its  own  object  and  its  own  future  which  is  at  the 
same  time  the  future  of  all  humanity." 

"The  Communist  parties,  far  from  conjuring  up  civil  war  arti- 
ficially, rather  strive  to  shorten  its  duration  as  much  as  possible — 
in  case  it  has  become  an  iron  necessity — to  minimize  the  number  of 
victims,  and  above  all  to  secure  victory  for  the  proletariat.  This 
makes  necessary  the  disarming  of  the  bourgeoisie  at  the  proper 
time,  the  arming  of  the  laborer,  and  the  formation  of  a  communist 
army  as  the  protector  of  the  rule  of  the  proletariat  and  the  inviola- 
bility of  the  social  structure." 

The  Chairman, — What  is  the  date  of  that  publication  ? 
Mr.  Stevenson. — May  10,  1919. 


29 

The  Chairman. — Is  that  published  in  the  City  of  New  York? 

Mr.  Stevenson. — No,  sir.     It  is  published  in  Boston.     It  has 
been  published  at  New  York  City  at  other  times. 
I  wish  to  offer  those  quotations  in  evidence. 

The  Chairman. — They  are  received. 

(Received  in  evidence  and  marked  Exhibit  305  of  this  date.) 

By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  This  manifesto  was  issued  as  an  appeal  to  all  Communist 
groups  in  other  countries,  was  it  not  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Nicholas  Lenine  has  addressed  a  communication  to  the 
American  workingmen,  has  he  not  ?  A.  Yes,  as  far  as  I  know. 

Mr.  Stevenson. — Mr.  Chairman,  I  wish  to  offer  in  evidence 
certain  parts  of  "A  letter  to  American  Workingmen,"  which  is 
issued  by  Nicholas  Lenine  from  Moscow  August  20,  1918,  and  I 
wish  to  read  parts,  as  follows : 

"A  Russian  Bolshevik  who  participated  in  the  Revolution 
of  1905  and  for  many  years  afterwards  lived  in  your  country 
has  offered  to  transmit  this  letter  to  you.  I  have  grasped 
this  opportunity  joyfully  for  the  revolutionary  proletariat 
of  America — in  so  far  as  it  is  the  enemy  of  American  imperi- 
alism— is  destined  to  perform  an  important  task  at  this  time. 

The  letter  goes  on  to  say : 

"  Political  activity  is  not  as  smooth  as  the  pavement  of  the 
Nevski  Prospect.  He  is  no  revolutionist  who  would  have  the 
revolution  of  the  proletariat  only  under  the  'condition'  that 
it  proceed  smoothly  and  in  an  orderly  manner,  that  guarantees 
against  defeat  be  given  beforehand,  that  the  revolution  go 
forward  along  the  broad,  free,  straight,  path  to  victory,  that 
there  shall  not  be  here  and  there  the  heaviest  sacrifices,  that 
we  shall  not  have  to  lie  in  wait  in  besieged  fortresses,  shall 
not  have  to  climb  up  along  the  narrowest  path,  the  most 
impassable,  winding,  dangerous  mountain  roads." 

And,  further  on  it  says : 

"In  words  our  accusers  '  recognize'  this  kind  of  class 
struggle,  in  deeds  they  revert  again  and  again  to  the  middle- 
class  Utopia  of  '  Class-harmony '  and  the  mutual  '  interde- 
pendence' of  classes  upon  one  another.  In  reality  the  class 


30 

struggle  in  revolutionary  times  has  always  inevitably  taken 
on  the  form  of  civil  war,  and  civil  war  is  unthinkable  without 
the  worst  kind  of  destruction,  without  terror  and  limitations 
of  form  of  democracy  in  the  interests  of  the  war.  One  must 
be  a  sickly  sentimentalist  not  to  be  able  to  see,  to  understand 
and  appreciate  this  necessity." 

And,  further  on : 

"  Its  servants  charge  us  with  the  use  of  terroristic  methods. 
—Have  the  English  forgotten  their  1649,  the  French  their 
1793  ?  Terror  was  just  and  justified  when  it  was  employed 
by  the  bourgeoisie  for  its  own  purposes  against  feudal  domina- 
tion. But  terror  becomes  criminal  when  workingmen  and 
poverty  stricken  peasants  dare  to  use  it  against  the  bour- 
geoisie. Terror  was  just  and  justified  when  it  was  used  to 
put  one  exploiting  minority  in  the  place  of  another.  But 
terror  becomes  horrible  and  criminal  when  it  is  used  to 
abolish  all  exploiting  minorities,  when  it  is  employed  in  the 
cause  of  the  actual  majority,  in  the  cause  of  the  proletariat 
and  the  semi-proletariat,  of  the  working-class  and  the  poor 
peasantry." 

By  Mr.  Stevenson. — 

Q.  Mr.  Martens,  if  I  understand  this  portion  of  Lenine's  letter 
correctly,  it  is  a  statement  that  terror  has  been  employed  by  the 
Soviet  government?  A.  Yes,  it  has  been. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  Mr.  Martens,  have  not  a  considerable 
number  of  commissars  at  one  time  or  another  been  executed  in 
Soviet  Russia1?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  believe  at  one  time  you  named  to  me  the  number?  A.  I 
think  about  1500  of  them. 

Q.  About  1500  commissars  were  executed?     A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  This  publication  of  which  a  large  number  of  reprints  were 
found  among  documents  recently  taken  in  the  raid  on  the  head- 
quarters of  the  Communist  party  in  this  city  made  a  week  ago 
last  Saturday  night. 

Mr.  Martens  (interposing). —  Mr.  Chairman,  permit  me  a 
question  ? 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Just  a  moment. 

The  Chairman. —  We  will  give  you  an  opportunity  to  say  all 
you  desire. 


31 

Q.  Mr.  Martens,  as  a  matter  of  fact  the  Russian  Soviet  Re- 
public is  based  upon  the  principles  of  the  Communist  Party  of 
Russia,  is  it  not  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Isn't  it  one  of  the  principles  of  the  Communist  Party  that 
the  workers  of  the  world  should  unite  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  they  should  unite  to  overthrow  capitalistic  system 
the  world  over  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Isn't  it  the  principle  of  the  Russian  Soviet  Government  that 
the  capitalist  governments  of  other  countries  should  be  over- 
thrown ;  answer  yes  or  no.  A.  I  cannot  answer  yes  or  no. 

Q.  You  have  done  it  for  me  once  before?  A.  Yes,  but  you  put 
the  question  in  different  ways. 

Q.  Well,  supposing  I  put  it  precisely  the  same  way 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  I  offer  the  book  I  was  reading  from  in  evi- 
dence. 

The  Chairman. —  It  will  be  received. 

(Received  and  marked  Exhibit  306  in-  evidence  of  this  date.) 

Q.  The  question  is  this :  "  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  in  overthrowing 
the  capitalist  system  (referring  to  the  Soviet  Government)  they 
wish  and  state  they  wish  the  overthrow  of  the  capitalist  govern- 
ment ? "  Answer  my  question,  please.  A.  Do  they  wish  the  over- 
throw of  capitalist  government,  or  do  they  not  wish  to,  is  that  the 
question  ? 

Q.  Yes,  sir.  A.  That  is  their  wish.  Their  wish  is  to  change 
from  the  capitalist  system  to  the  socialist  system. 

The  Chairman. —  How  do  they  expect  this  change  to  come 
about? 

The  Witness. —  Well,  the  change  may  come  in  many  ways,  Mr. 
Chairman;  the  change  may  come  on  purely  pacific  ways,  and  it 
may  come  as  a  result  of  a  bitter  struggle.  Many  ways  are  possible. 

Q.  Mr.  Martens 

The  Chairman. —  Just  a  minute.  But  they  are  willing  to 
accept  any  way  so  long  as  it  is  done;  so  long  as  they  obtain  the 
result  they  do  not  mind  which  way  that  happens  ? 

The  Witness. —  They  do  not  care  how  it  is  done. 

The  Chairman. —  Whether  it  is  done  by  terror  or  diplomacy  ? 

The  Witness. —  It  is  a  matter  of  the  working  class. 

The  Chairman. —  It  is  a  matter  for  themselves  to  settle. 

The  Witness. —  It  is  a  matter  for  themselves  to  settle. 


32 

By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  I  ask  this  question  again:  Isn't  it  a  matter  wherever  the 
Soviet  Government  issues  propaganda  advising  the  propriety  of 
overthrowing  of  capitalist  governments  of  other  countries  ?  A. 
They  are  issuing  propaganda  as  a  defense. 

Q.  I  am  asking  you  this  question:  Isn't  it  a  fact  that  the 
Soviet  Government  issues  propaganda  advising  the  propriety  of 
overthrowing  the  capitalist  governments  in  other  countries?  A. 
No,  it  is  not  a  fact.  I  deny  it. 

Q.  In  answer  to  that  question  before  you  said  it  does.  A.  It 
does  in  a  specific  way  as  a  means  of  defense  against  attacking. 

Q.  But  it  does,  does  it  not  ?    A.  Yes,  as  a  means  of  defense. 

Mr.  Berger. —  Would  you  call  Lenine's  letter  to  the  American 
workingmen  a  matter  of  defense,  a  matter  of  affirmative  defense  ? 

The  Witness. —  As  a  matter  of  defense  to  a  certain  extent. 

Mr.  Berger. —  Is  it  a  matter  of  propaganda  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Berger. —  Then  it  is  affirmative  propaganda,  is  it  not  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes. 

Mr.  Berger. —  I  suggest  that  we  take  an  adjournment.  There 
are  certain  reasons  why  we  want  an  adjournment  at  this  time. 

The  Chairman. —  What  time  do  you  suggest  for  the  next  meet- 
ing of  the  Committee  ? 

Mr.  Berger. —  A  week  from  to-morrow  at  10 :30  a.  m.  At  that 
time  Attorney-General  Newton  will  be  down  here  personally,  and 
I  suggest  that  date,  if  it  is  agreeable  to  the  Committee. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Committee  is  satisfied  to  grant  that  ad- 
journment until  that  date  and  that  time. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Will  you  direct  the  witness  to  return? 

The  Chairman. —  Mr.  Martens,  will  you  appear  here  before 
this  Committee  at  this  place  at  a  week  from  to-morrow  at  10:30 
o'clock,  to  continue  this  examination  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

Whereupon,  at  3:15  o'clock  p.  m.,  the  Committee  recessed  to 
meet  on  Tuesday,  November  25,  1919,  at  10:30  o'clock  a.  m. 


MEETING  OF  JOINT  LEGISLATIVE  COMMITTEE  OF  THE 
STATE  OF  NEW  YORK  TO  INVESTIGATE 
SEDITIOUS  ACTIVITIES    - 


CITY  HALL,  NEW  YORK, 

November  25,  1919,  10.30  A.  M. 
Present: 

Senator  Walters, 

Senator  Mullan, 

Assemblyman  Martin  (Vice-Chairman), 

Assemblyman  Pellet, 

Assemblyman  Jenks, 

Assemblyman  McElligott, 

Senator  Boylan, 

Assemblyman  Burr. 

Appearances: 

Hon.  Charles  D.  Xewton,  Attorney-General, 
Hon.  Samuel  A.  Berger,  Deputy  Attorney-General, 
Archibald  E.  Stevenson,  Esq.,  Associate  Counsel. 
Mr.  Charles  A.  Hotaling,  Sergeant-at-Arms. 


The  Vice-Chairman  (Assemblyman  Martin). —  The  meeting 
will  come  to.  order,  please.  At  the  request  of  some  of  the  members 
of  the  Committee  they  desire  to  take  ten  minutes'  time  for  consul- 
tation in  another  room  in  regard  to  some  matters. 

(At  11.20  A.  M.,  the  Committee  returned  to  the  Council 
Chamber). 

The  Chairman. —  The  Committee  will  come  to  order.  I  assume 
you  were  to  go  on  with  some  examination,  General  Newton  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  Yes,  Mr.  Chairman,  Mr.  Martens. 
(Mr.  Ludwig  C.  A.  K.  Martens  takes  the  witness  stand.) 

The  Attorney-General. —  Mr.  Martens,  I  understand  you  have 
been  previously  sworn  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir.  Before  we  proceed,  will  you  let  me 
make  some  changes,  some  corrections  in  the  minutes  ? 

2 


34 

The  ('lutiniian. —  Vciv  well.  Do  you  desire  to  rend  your  cor- 
rections into  the  minutes?  There  is  no  objection  to  that,  is  there, 
General  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  No,  I  have  no  objection  to  that. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Is  tluit  ;i  stenographic  copy  of  the 
minutes  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  I  wish  to  correct. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  From  your  memory  or  from  some 
notes  taken  at  the  time  ? 

The  Witness. —  No,  I  have  an  official  copy  of  the  minutes. 

The  Attorney-General. —  He  has  an  official  copy  of  the  minutes 
hero. 

Deputy  Attorney-General  Berger. —  I  furnished  a  copy  of  the 
minutes  to  Mr.  Martens'  attorney. 

The  Chairman. —  You  may  proceed,  if  you  desire  to  read  your 
corrections,  as  I  understand  it,  in  the  minutes.  Is  there  objection 
to  that,  General  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  have  no  objection. 

The  Witness. —  (Reading)  : 

"  Although  ostensibly  I  have  been  called  before  your  Com- 
mittee as  a  witness,  yet  in  effect  the  statements  given  out  to 
the  press  by  the  Attorney-General's  office  make  it  appear  that 
the  object  of  my  examination  is  to  obtain  evidence  in  order  to 
proceed  against  me.  Still  I  have  been  denied  the  privilege 
of  counsel  — 

The  Chairman. —  That  is  a  statement,  isn't  it  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  That  is  a  sermon  you  are  preaching 
now,  that  is  not  a  correction. 

Mr.  Martens. —  Yes,  I  will  get  to  it  in  a  minute. 

The  Chairman. —  I  thought  possibly  you  could  make  that  state- 
ment at  the  end. 

The  Attorney-General. — Well,  let  him  do  it  in  his  own  way 
first. 


35 

The  Witness. — (Resuming  reading)  : 

"  With  the  result  that  the  examination  has  been  one-sided 
and  the  testimony  given  by  me,  through  its  incompleteness 
is  open  to  misrepresentation.  I  therefore  desire  to  make  the 
following  statement,  in  order  to  correct  actual  errors  and  the 
gaps  in  the  record. 

"  1.  The  record  of  my  testimony  on  pages  1071-1072 
contains  the  following  questions  and  answers: 

"  Q.  Did  you  register  as  an  alien  enemy  when  you  entered 
this  country?  A.  No,  sir. 

"  Q.  Or  at  any  time  when  you  were  in  this  country  ?  A. 
No,  sir. 

"  Q.  At  any  time  while  this  country  was  at  war  with  Ger- 
many ?  A.  No,  sir. 

"  Q.  In  spite  of  the  fact  you  entered  as  a  German  citizen  ? 
A.  In  spite  of  the  fact  that  I  entered  as  a  German  citizen. 

"  Q.  What  citizenship  do  you  now  claim  ?  A.  Russian 
citizenship. 

"  Q.  How  did  you  acquire  Russian  citizenship  ?  A.  I 
applied  for  Russian  citizenship  papers  since  the  outbreak 
of  the  Russian  Revolution. 

"  Q.  When?    A.  In  March,  1917. 

"  Q.  You  have  not  left  this  country  since  you  last  came 
here  ?  A.  No,  I  did  not  leave. 

"  Q.  When  did  you  receive  notice  of  your  having  become 
a  Russian  citizen,  Mr.  Martens?  A.  I  think  May,  1917,  or 
maybe  June,  1917. 

'"  This  testimony  is  followed  by  an  effort  to  assail  the  regu- 
larity of  my  Russian  citizenship.  The  examination  con- 
ducted by  Deputy  Attorney-General  and  associate  counsel  to 
the  Committee,  however,  has  failed  to  bring  out  all  the  facts 
relating  to  my  Russian  citizenship,  and  it  is  a  well-known 
rule  that  anything  short  of  the  whole  truth  may  in  effect 
amount  to  an  untruth.  My  testimony  shows  that  I  was  born 
and  educated  in  Russia ;  that  in  1899  by  reason  of  my  affilia- 
tion with  the  revolutionary  movement,  I  was  deported  by  the 
Czar's  'government  to  Germany ;  that  I  continued  my  affilia- 
tion with  the  Russian  revolutionary  movement  up  to  the 
revolution  which  began  with  the  abdication  of  the  Czar  to 
the  establishment  of  the  Provisional  Government  on  March 
16,  1917.  This  Provisional  Government  was  officially  recog- 


36 

nized  by  the  government  of  the  United  States  and  the  State 
of  New  York. 

"  One  of  the  first  acts  of  the  Provisional  Government  was 
a  proclamation  of  amnesty  for  all  political  offenders  which 
was  made  three  days  after  the  abdication  of  the  Czar,  to  wit, 
on  March  19,  1017.  The  Provisional  Government  followed 
that  act  by  an  invitation  to  all  Russian  political  refugees  to 
return  to  Russia  at  government  expense.  Under  the  terms 
of  the  amnesty  I  was  entitled  to  return  to  Russia.  Owing 
to  the  fact,  however,  that,  although  bom  and  bred  in  Russia, 
I  was  technically  a  German  subject,  and  that  Russia  was 
then  at  war  with  »Germany,  I  could  not  avail  myself  of  the 
benefit  of  the  amnesty  proclamation  without  a  special  act  of 
the  Provisional  Xjrovernment.  fl  therefore  immediately 
applied  for  admission  to  Russian  citizenship,  and  my  appli- 
cation was  granted  by  the  Provisional  Government  of  Prince 
Lvov  in  May  or  June,  1917.  By  this  act  of  the  Provisional 
Government,  I  thus  became  a  Russian  citizen. 

"  I  desire  to  emphasize  the  fact  that  my  naturalization  as 
a  Russian  citizen  was  granted  by  an  act  of  the  government 
which  was  recognized  by  the  government  of  the  United 
States. 

"  Tlie  general  rules  and  regulations  prescribed  by  the 
Attorney-General  of  the  United  States  for  the  registration  of 
German  alien  enemies,  were  issued  on  December  31,  1917, 
pursuant  to  the  proclamation  of  the  President  of  the  United 
States,  dated  November  16,  1917.  At  that  time  I  was  already 
a  Russian  citizen  and  was  therefore  not  subject  to  registra- 
tion under  those  Rules  and  Regulations." 

The  second  correction  — 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  How  is  that  a  correction  of  the 
record  ?  That  is  an  apology,  isn't  it  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  Well,  allow  him  to  continue. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  I  fail  to  see  that  it  is  a  correction. 
We  are  willing  to  give  him  an  opportunity  to  speak,  but  I  don't 
see  how  you  can  attack  the  record  at  that  point. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Well,  I  will  try  to  find  out  what  he 
means,  if  we  will  have  a  little  patience. 


37 

The  Witness.- —  The  second  correction,  on  page  1057  of  the 
minutes,  the  following  questions  and  answers  appear: 

"  Q.  Where  was  Lenine  at  that  time?    A.  In  Brooklyn/' 

This  is  an  error  of  the  stenographer.  I  never  made  such  a 
statement.  The  answer  should  be  "  In  Switzerland." 

The  Attorney-General. — "  Brooklyn  "  should  be  changed  to 
"  Switzerland." 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Probably  the  Brooklyn  people  did  not 
like  that. 

The  Witness. —  Maybe  not;  I  don't  know.  Pages  1072  and 
1073  the  following  statement  appears: 

"  The  only  thing  I  could  tell  you  is  that  when  I  was  a  boy 
of  about  17  years  I  applied  for  Russian  citizen  papers  from 
the  Russian  Government  and  General  ^ron  Wahl  refused  to 
grant  me  citizenship  papers  because  he  wanted  me  first  to 
serve  in  the  German  army  and  then  to  become  a  Russian 
citizen,  so  I  was  refused  in  1917  on  account  of  not  having 
served  "in  the  German  Army." 

"  The  year  1917  is  obviously  erroneous  and  in  contradic- 
tion to  the  preceding  part  of  the  same  sentence,  wherein  I 
stated  that  at  the  time  I  first  applied  for  Russian  Citizenship 
'  I  was  a  boy  of  about  17  years.'  It  is  obvious  that  in  the 
year  1917  I  was  no  longer  a  boy  of  17.  I  don't  recall  now 
what  words  I  may  have  used,  but  it  is  obvious  that  the  words 
'in  1917  '  are  an  error  of  the  stenographer. 

"  Very  respectfully," 

Acting  Chairman  Martin. —  Does  the  General  desire  to  take 
that  memorandum  of  his  ? 

Attorney-General  Newton. —  If  I  want  it,  I  will  ask  him  for  it. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  Martens,  the  actual  correction  of  the  minutes 
consists  in  striking  out  the  word  "  Brooklyn,"  on  page  1057,  and 
inserting  "  Switzerland."  That  is  all  the  correction  on  that  page  ? 
A.  Yes.  The  next  correction  was  on  pages  1072-73. 


38 

Q.  I  will  get  to  that  later.  Thai  was  the  only  correction  on 
that  page  '.  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  the  other  page  where  you  claim  the  minutes  should  be 
corrected  is  on  page  \0~'2  (  A.  And  3. 

Q.    107:i;     A.    Yes. 

Q.  Now,  what  is  ir  von  claim  is  tin-  matter  with  page  1072; 
what  correction  do  you  make  there  i  A.  T  did  not  say  that  I  was 
refused  in  1917  on  account  of  not  having  served  in  the  Germany 
army.  It  evidently  is  a  mistake. 

Q.  That  is  on  page  1073  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  there  any  statement  on  page  1072  that  you  did  not  make 
when  you  were  being  sworn  and  on  the  witness  stand  ?  A.  The 
sentence  beginning  on  page  1072  —  it  begins  on  page  1072  and 
finishes  at  page  1073. 

Q.  That  starts  with :  "  The  only  thing  I  can  tell  you  is  when 
I  was  a  boy  "  -  ?  A.  Yes, 

Q.  And  ends  where  (  A.  And  ends  '"  I  was  refused  in  1017  on 
account  of  not  having  served  in  the  German  army." 

Q.  It  ends  with  the  words  "  German  Army  ?  "     A. .  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  what  do  you  say  you  said,  intended  to  say  ?  A.  The 
year  1917  is  erroneous  and  in  contradiction  to  the  preceding  part 
of  the  same  sentence,  wherein  I  stated  that  at  the  time  I  first  ap- 
plied for  Russian  citizenship  I  was  a  boy  of  about  17  years. 

Q.  Now,  how  old  were  you  when  you  first  applied  for  Russian 
citizenship?  A.  17  years. 

Q.  So  that  part  is  correct?     A.  Yes,  but  it  was  not  in  1917. 

Q.  Because  you  were  more  than  17  in  1917?     A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Well,  otherwise  the  stenographer  reported  you  correctly? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  you  have  read  from  a  paper  some  statements  in  addi- 
tion to  the  corrections  of  the  minutes  this  morning,  have  you  not  ? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  Who  prepared  that  paper?    A.  I  myself. 

Q.  With  the  assistance  of  anybody?  A.  Yes,  I  consulted  my 
lawyers. 

Q.  This  was  got  iip  by  you  for  a  purpose  with  the  assistance 
of  your  counsel?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  It  is  not  very  material,  but  I  see  from  the  public  press  that 
you  have  started  some  action  against  some  of  the  newspapers  here 
for  libel,  or  something  of  that  sort?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  was  it  the  same  counsel  who  started  those  actions,  who 
prepared  this  explanation?  A.  Well,  all  my  counsel  prepared 
this. 


39 

Q.  How  many  have  you  ?     A.  I  have  three. 

Q.  I  wanted  to  see  how  sorry  I  ought  to  be  for  you.  A.  I 
have  three. 

Q.  And  they  were  all  together  when  this  statement  you  have 
read  this  morning  to  the  Committee  was  prepared  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  which  was  intended  as  a  correction  of  the  minutes  so 
far  as  you  have  pointed  out,  and  some  explanation  of  your  posi- 
tion ?  A.  Yes,  a  correction  of  the  impression  given. 

Q.  A  correction  of  what  you  thought  might  be  an  impression 
gained  by  the  reading  of  the  testimony  as  published  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well  now,  you  were  asked  —  which  you  have  read  as  one 
of  the  minutes  on  page  1072  —  "  When  did  you  receive  notice  of 
your  having  become  a  Russian  citizen?"  "A.  I  think  maybe 
May,  1917,  or  may  be  June,  1917."  That  is  correct?  A.  Yes, 
that  is  correct. 

Q.  How  did  you  receive  that  notice?  A.  As  I  explained  last 
time,  from  my  relatives  in  Russia. 

Q.  Well,  I  know,  but  how,  by  letter  or  how?  A.  By  letter, 
yes. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  one  of  your  relatives  advised  you 
that  you  have  been  admitted  to  citizenship  in  the  Russian  Soviet 
Government  ?  A.  Not  Soviet  Government,  but  Provisional  Gov- 
ernment. 

Q.  Provisional  Government?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well,  that  is  the  Government  of  Lenine  and  Trotzky?  A. 
No,  the  government  of  Prince  Luvoff. 

Q.  Do  you  recall  just  what  one  of  your  relatives  advised  you 
that  you  had  been  thus  admitted  to  citizenship  there?  A.  I  was 
advised  that  I  was  a  subject  of  the  armistice  — 

Q.'  My  question  is  if  you  recall  that  one  of  your  relatives  gave 
you  that  information  ?  A.  I  do  not  understand  the  question. 

Q.  You  say  you  got  the  information  from  a  relative  ?    A.   Yes. 

Q.  Now,  who  ?     What  one  ?    A.  What  one  ?     My  sister. 

Q.  And  was  that  contained  in  a  letter?    A.  In  a  letter,  yes. 

Q.  Have  you  that  letter?     A.  Not  by  me,  but  I  have  it,  yes. 

Q.  Can  you  produce  it  ?    A.  Yes,  I  can. 

Q.  And  will  you  produce  it  ?     A.  Yes,  certainly. 

Q.  Now,  you  seem  to  be  uncertain  as  to  what  month  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  I  take  it,  then,  that  you  have  never  received  any  official 
.information  on  the  subject  ?  A.  Well,  you  see  how  it  comes  — 

Q.  Now,  you  know  what  I  mean  by  "official  information," 
do  you  not?  A.  Yes,  sir;  I  received  official  information. 


40 

Q.  Well  now,  whom  did  you  receive  that  official  information 
from '4  A.  I  received  it  already  during  the  Soviet  government 
regime. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  receive  it  from  ?  A.  From  the  present  Soviet 
government. 

Q.  And  in  what  form  ?  A.  In  the  form  of  a  document  stating 
that  1  am  a  Russian  citizen. 

Q.  And  where  is  that  paper?     A.  That  is  here. 

Q.   That  you  can  produce?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well,  that  fixed  the  month,  did  it  not  ?    A.  Yes,  it  does. 

Q.  So  that  you  can  fix  the  time  to  a  certainty?  A.  Exactly, 
yes. 

Q.  And  can  you  produce  that  paper?    A.  Yes,  sir,  I  will. 

Q.  Now,  going  back  to  the  explanation  which  you  read,  which 
you  say  was  prepared  by  your  counsel  who  was  interested  in 
your  libel  suit,  was  this  so-called  explanation  intended  to  in  any 
way  affect  these  actions  that  are  pending?  A.  Xo,  not  at  all. 

Q.  Merely  because  you  or  they  thought  there  might  l>e  some 
misunderstanding  about  the  effect  of  your  testimony  ?  A.  No, 
not  at  all.  You  see.  my  libel  actions  are  based  u}>oii  the  state- 
ments of  several  newspapers  that  I  admitted,  during  the  last 
hearing,  that  I  am  here  in  this  country  to  support  the  American 
revolution,  which  I  deny  most  emphatically,  and  I  deny  it  at 
the  present  moment,  too.  This  libel  action  is  based  exclusively 
on  those  statements  in  those  newspapers. 

Q.  You  think,  then,  I  take  it,  that  a  man  who  would  come  to 
this  country  for  the  purpose  of  overthrowing  this  government 
would  be  committing  a  wrong?  .A.  Certainly;  that  is  exactly 
my  position. 

Q.  And  if  he  was  charged  with  being  interested  in  any  such 
scheme,  when  it  was  not  true,  you  think  that  he  would  be  entitled 
to  some  damages  to  his  reputation  and  standing  in  the  community  ? 
A.  Absolutely,  yes. 

Q.  Xo  matter  what  his  beliefs  were  in  relation  to  the  form 
of  our  government  ?  A.  Yes. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Were  those  statements  which  were 
made  by  the  newspapers  deductions  from  your  testimony,  or 
were  they  given  as  a  quotation  from  your  testimony?  A.  The 
deductions  which  were  made  in  that  paper,  and  by  some  other 
people  who  made  the  deductions,  are  simply  products  of  an 
unbalanced  mind. 


41 

Q.  Well,  did  the  newspapers  misquote  you  in  any  way?  Was 
there  something  said  in  the  newspapers  which  you  did  not  say 
here  at  this  meeting  ?  A.  Certainly ;  it  was  said  that  I  am  here 
for  the  purpose  of  overthrowing  this  government. 

Q.  Well,  did  the  newspapers  assume  to  quote  you  in  that 
respect,  or  was  it  an  inference  from  what  you  had  said?  A.  It 
was  simply  a  statement. 

Q.  Well,  you  do  not  contend  that  the  newspapers  misquoted 
you  ?  A.  Absolutely  they  misquoted  me,  my  intentions  and  my 
words. 

Q.  In  spite  of  that,  the  only  correction  you  make  to  the  record 
in  regard  to  one  or  two  very  important  things  —  A.  Those  news- 
papers did  not  contain  my  statements  which  are  in  the  record. 

Mr.  Stevenson.—  You  stand  by  your  statements  in  the  record, 
do  you  not? 

The  Witness. —  Certainly. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Mr.  Martens,  I  want  to  ask  you  a  few  questions  as  to  your 
knowledge  of  the  Russian  bonds  that  were  in  force  at  the  time  of 
the  formation  of  the  Provisional  government  —  and  I  mean  by 
that  identifying  it  with  the  reign  of  Lenine  and  Trotzky?  A. 
Russian  what  ? 

Q.  Bonds.    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  bonds  were  issued  by  the  former 
governments,  or  how  many  are  outstanding  against  Russia?  A. 
You  mean  foreign  bonds  ? 

Q.  Yes,  such  bonds  as  were  sold  largely  in  the  United  States, 
do  you  not  ?  A.  Yes.  I  know  only  of  two  bond  issues ;  one  was 
made  by  the  Imperial  Russian  government,  $50,000,000,  and 
another  one  was  made  by  the  Provisional  government,  as  far  I 
remember  it  —  also  fifty. 

Q.  So  there  were  $100,000,000  in  those  bonds  in  force  at  the 
time  of  the  formation  of  the  Soviet  government  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  know  as  a  fact  that  those  bonds  were  sold  quite 
extensively  in  the  United  States  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  what  action,  if  any,  did  the  Lenine  and  Trotzky  gov- 
ernment take  in  relation  to  those  outstanding  obligations?  A. 
The  Soviet  government  offered,  on  several. occasions,  to  pay  these 
bonds. 


42 

Q.  Well,  offered  to  pay  them  how  ?  A.  To  negotiate  about  the 
method  of  payment  and  to  pay  them. 

Q.  Is  it  not  a  fact  that  they  repudiated  every  financial  obliga- 
tion of  the  former  government  ?  A.  No,  it  is  not  true. 

Q.  It  is  not  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  That  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge?  A.  Yes.  If  you 
will  permit  me,  I  will  tell  you  more  about  it. 

Q.  Well,  thon,  I  will  lot  you  toll  what  you  know  about  it,  of 
course.  A.  Well,  the  former  obligations  of  the  Imperial  gov- 
ernment were  repudiated  by  the  Congress  of  Soviets,  and  the 
government  of  Soviet  Russia  was  given  the  power  to  repudiate 
them  at  any  moment  officially.  This  power  was  never  used  by 
the  Soviet  government.  The  Soviet  government  offered,  on  many 
occasions,  to  come  to  an  understanding  with  the  Soviet  Congress 
in  regard  to  the  payment  of  the  bonds. 

Q.  In  what  way  and  upon  what  terms  ?  A.  There  are  many 
terms  possible  —  to  pay  the  debts.  The  country  is  not  in  position 
at  present,  but  they  make  methods  so  possible  to  adjust  a 
settlement. 

Q.  But  you  mean  by  settlement  to  pay  less  than  the  face  of 
them  ?  A.  No,  to  pay  interest  or  to  engage  a  concern  of  bankers 
to  take  over  the  debts  or  in  any  other  way. 

Q.  What  particular  information  have  you  which  is  reliable 
that  the  Soviet  government  has  ever  in  any  way  admitted  or  been 
willing  to  pay  interest  or  assume  the  financial  obligation  of  these 
bonds,  in  any  way?  A.  I  have  an  official  paper  from  the  Soviet 
government  telling  me  to  offer  to  the  American  government  and 
to  some  concerns  interested  in  the  question  of  debts  the  settle- 
ment, so  I  did. 

Q.  Have  you  that  paper  ?    A.  Yes,  I  have  it. 

Q.  Can  you  produce  it  ?  A.  I  could  not  produce  the  papers 
of  the  Soviet  government  without  having  the  permission  of  the 
Soviet  government. 

Q.  You  have  such  paper  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  it  in  your  possession?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  So  that  we  may  have  no  misunderstanding  about  the  record, 
you  decline  to  produce  it  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  financial  institution  did  you  acquaint  with  the  fact 
that  you  had  such  authority  from  the  Soviet  government?  A. 
Well,  I  had  informal  discussions  with  some  people  who  are 
connected  with  these  financial  institutions,  but  it  did  not  come  so 
far  that  it  could  be  called  official  negotiations.  • 


43 

Q.  Will  you  tell  me  who  it  was  ?  A.  Well,  I  tried  to  approach 
the  National  City  Bank. 

Q.  National  City  Bank  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  see  at  the  National  City  Bank  in  relation 
to  the  matter?  A.  I  did  not  see  any  of  the  officials  of  the 
National  City  Bank,  but  I  saw  some  people  who  were  interested, 
who  held  connections  with  the  bank. 

Q.  Tell  me  who  they  were.  A.  Well,  I  don't  think  I  could 
tell  you  at  the  present  moment  before  seeing  the  correspondence, 
but  I  will  give  you  all  information  concerning  it  gladly  after  I 
look  through  the  files. 

Q.  And  would  you  be  prepared  to  do  that  —  to-morrow  morn- 
ing, you  think  ?  A:  To-morrow  morning. 

Q.  Now,  the  official  notification  from  the  government  which 
advises  you  that  you  had  been  accepted  as  a  citizen  of  the  Russian 
Soviet  government,  how  did  you  receive  that  paper?  A.  This 
particular  paper  I  received  by  mail,  if  I. remember  right. 

Q.  Is  there  any  way,  by  the  examination  of  the  paper  itself, 
that  you  can  refresh  your  recollection  ?o  that  you  can  be  positive 
about  it  ?  A.  Well,  I  think  I  can  be  refreshed,  yes. 

Q.  Among  the  various  things  that  I  am  asking  for,  would  that 
be  too  much  to  have  you  look  up  between  now  and  to-morrow 
morning?  A.  No. 

Q.  Outside  of  the  bank  you  have  referred  to,  did  you  make  any 
suggestion  of  your  government  to  care  for  these  outstanding  obli- 
gations through  other  banking  institutions  ?  A.  We  are  trying  to 
organize  here  a  concern,  a  company  which  would  take  care  of  all 
these  matters. 

Q.  My  inquiry,  so  that  we  won't  get  off  the  track,  that's  all, 
my  inquiry  is  what  other  institution  you  attempted  to  commu- 
nicate the  desire  of  the  Russian  Government  to  pay  the  obligations 
of  these  bonds  you  have  referred  to  ?  A,  I  did  not  refer  to  any 
particular  banking  institution.  My  idea  was  to  organize  several 
banking  institutions  and  one  big  concern  who  could  take  care  of 
some  big  financial  transactions. 

Q.  Of  course,  the  financial  transactions,  so  far  as  these  bonds 
are  concerned,  consisted  of  an  obligation  on  the  part  of  some 
Russian  Government  ?  A.  Yes.  * 

Q.  And  they  had  already  had  the  money,  some  Russian  Gov- 
ernment had  already  had  the  money  ?  A.  Yes. 


44 

Q.  And  of  course  if  they  were  ever  paid  they  would  have  to  be 
paid  by  Kussia?  A.  Certaiuly. 

Q.  And  there  is  no  organization  or  combination  of  capital  in 
this  country  which  would  help  that  in  any  way?  A.  Oh,  yes,  it 
could  help  in  many  ways.  Now,  you  know,  .Mr.  Xcwtou,  that 
every  country  in  Europe  is"  bankrupt  now,  the  financial  bankruptcy 
is  all  over  Europe,  not  excluding  England,  Germany,  France  and 
also  Russia,  and  to  make  some  financial  arrangements  it  is  neces- 
sary to  have  the  assistance  of  the  bankers  and  it  is  my  idea  to 
get  the  assistance  here  in  the  United  States  of  America. 

Q.  Of  course,  the  obligation  upon  those  bonds  now  is  princi- 
pally in  the  payment  of  the  interest,  isn't  it  ?  A.  No,  the  bonds 
of  1919  are  due  now,  I  think  they  are  due  in  June  of  this  year. 

Q.  Were  they  short  term  bonds  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  There  are  some  obligations  of  interest  on  these  bonds  which 
have  been  oUt  and  unpaid  for  some  considerable  period  of  time? 
A.  Yes,  sir.  It  is  my  idea  to  pay  all  these  debts,  if  the  political 
and  economic  negotiations  will  proceed  in  a  satisfactory  way. 

Q.  You  are  very  certain  that  any  information  that  I  have  that 
the  Lenine  and  Trotzky  government  absolutely  repudiated  the 
financial  obligations  of  their  country  on  those  bonds  is  not  so? 
A.  Xot  so,  no. 

Q.  And  you  are  positive  as  you  can  be  from  information  which 
you  have  that  they  are  desirous  of  making  some  arrangements  to 
pay  those  old  obligations  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Notwithstanding  their  opposition  as  to  capitalized  govern- 
ment or  anything  else  ?  A.  Exactly. 

By  Senator  Walters: 

Q.  General,  may  1  ask  him  whether  he  is  conscious  of  the  fact 
that  his  statement  may  accelerate  the  purchase  and  sale  of  these 
bonds  in  this  country  at  this  time  ?•  A.  What  ? 

Q.  I  ask  whether  you  are  conscious  of  the  fact  that  your  state- 
ment might  accelerate  the  sale  and  purchase  of  these  bonds  at  this 
time?  A.  When  I  made  the  statement  I  didn't  think  about  it. 

Q.  That  carries  with  it  that  effect;  now,  are  you  in  position 
to  make  such  a  statement  to  the  public  of  this  country  that  will 
create  a  confidence  or  accelerate  the  purchase  and  sale  of  these 
bonds  ?  A.  I  can  make  a  statement  to  the  American  public  that 
the  Soviet  Government  is  ready  at  any  moment  to  negotiate  the 


45 

payment  of  all  foreign  debts  including  the  debts  which  were 
floated  here  in  the  United  States. 

Q.  Have  you  an  official  communication  to  that  effect  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Would  you  mind  furnishing  the  Committee  with  that,  with 
a  copy,  of  that  official  communication  ?  A.  Yes,  sir ;  certainly. 

Q.  Upon  what  action  of  the  Soviet  Government  is  that  founded  ? 
A.  It  is  founded  on  direct  communications  I  received  from  the 
Soviet  Government  and  also  from  several  offers  made  to  allied 
governments  — 

Q.  You  misunderstand  my  question;  who  is  the  responsible 
Soviet,  or  what  is  the  responsible  Soviet  Government  ?  A.  It  is  a 
national  executive  committee  of  the  Soviets. 

Q.  There  exists  no  longer  a  representative  body  or  what  we 
term  in  this  country  a  legislative  body?  A.  Yes,  certainly  it 
exists.  The  legislative  body  of  Russia  is  a  Congress  of  Soviets. 

Q.  Is  that  Congress  the  responsible  government  or  is  the  execu- 
tive committee  the  responsible  government?  A.  The  Congress  is 
the  responsible  government. 

Senator  Walters. —  Then  I  ask  you  whether  the  formal  com- 
munication which  you  have  is  founded  upon  the  action  of  the 
formal  government  of  (Soviet  Russia  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

Senator  Walters. —  I  beg  your  pardon,  General,  for  interrupt- 
ing the  examination. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Mr.  Martens,  isn't  it  one  of  the  principles  of 
the  Russian  Communist  party  that  the  capitalist  should  be  ex- 
propriated ? 

The  Witness. —  Well,  gentlemen  — 

IVfr.  Stevenson. —  Well,  answer  the  question. 

The  Witness. —  I  cannot  answer  it  yes  or  no,  without  giving 
more  explanation. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Well,  isn't  it  a  fact  that  the  Communist  prin- 
ciple is  that  the  capitalist  should  be  expropriated  ? 

The  Witness. —  It  is  a  principle  of  every  Social  party,  not  only 
the  Communist,  but  every  Social  partv  to  establish  a  Social  ffov- 

^  L  t/  O 

eminent  in  every  country  which  is  based  upon  common  propertv 
for  all. 


46 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Has  not  Lenine  stated  that  one  of  your  prin- 
cipal objects  at  the  present  time  is  the  complete  expropriation  and 
suppression  of  the  bourgeoisie  and  capitalism? 

The  Witness. —  You  are  presenting  the  case  too  one-sided. 
Mr.  Stevenson. —  I  am  asking  you  the  question. 
The  Witness. —  No,  I  deny  it. 

Senator  Walters. —  I  would  like  to  ask  another  question :  It 
is  one  of  the  principles  of  the  Soviet  'Socialistic  government  that 
there  is  a  distinction  between  the  proletariat  and  the  capitalist? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir ;  there  is. 

Senator  Walters. —  That  there  is  no  substantial,  inherent  right 
in  property  ? 

The  Witness.— Yes. 

Senator  Walters. —  That  property  virtually  belongs  to  the  com- 
munity and  that  each  shall  share  in  the  so-called  property? 

The  Witness. —  That  is  the  Socialistic  view. 

Senator  Walters. —  Now,  that  is  carried  to  the  extent  that  no 
class  shall  accumulate  as  against  another  class  ? 

The  Witness. —  Whether  that  is  so  or  not,  is  that  what  you 
want  to  ask  me  ? 

Senator  Walters. —  Is  it  one  of  the  fundamental  principles  that 
no  class  of  persons  shall  accumulate  property  as  against  another 
class  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

'Senator  Walters. —  Tf  that  should  happen  in  Soviet  Russia  the 
distinction  between  the  propertv  in  the  hands  of  the  poor  and  the 
property  in  the  hands  of  the  rich  would  immediately  be  destroyed  ? 

The  Witness. —  T  should  not  say  immediately. 

Senator  Walters.- —  But  that  is  the  principle,  that  it  should  be 
destroyed  ? 

The  Witness.— Yes.  v 


47 

Senator  Walters. —  If  a  class  in  Russia  were  to  control  a  bond 
issue  of  Russia,  the  moment  the  bonds  would  come  into  the  hands 
of  the  particular  class  of  people,  that  would  become  capitalistic 
under  your  definition  of  the  principle  ? 

The  Witness. —  No,  sir. 

Senator  Walters. —  How  do  you  then  distinguish  between  those 
who  accumulate  and  those  who  have  not? 

The  Witness. —  Permit  me  to  make  a  little  explanation. 
Senator  Walters. —  Certainly. 

The  Witness. —  Now,  you  see,  you  probably  do  not  know  that 
in  Russia  money  as  such  is  not  confiscated  by  the  Soviet  Govern- 
ment. Every  capitalist  may  have  millions  of  money,  he  would 
not  be  touched.  The  only  thing  that  would  happen  to  him 
would  be  that  he  would  not  get  interest  for  his  money  deposited 
in  the  banks. 

Senator  Walters. —  You  don't  want  his  money  to  become  pro- 
ductive ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  we  don't  want  his  money  to  become  for 
the  exploitation  of  other  people. 

Senator  Walters. — Well,  isn't  it  fundamental  that  you  do  not 
desire  his  means  to  become  productive? 

The  Witness. — All  means  must  become  productive  and  Russia 
is  at  at  the  present  times  straining  every  nerve  to  get  all  means 
productive. 

Senator  Walters. —  In  other  words,  his  money  shall  be  applied 
to  the  benefit  of  Russia  without  any  result  in  benefit  to  him? 

The  Witness. —  Money  as  such  is  not  productive. 

Senator  Wralters. — Would  your  Soviet  principle  applied  to  the 
ju'cumulntion  of  Russian  bonds  in  this  country  lead  -your  country 
to  refuse  to  pay  on  the  ground  that  the  capitalistic  class  in  this 
country  had  accumulated  or  had  acquired  those  bonds? 

The  Witness. —  The  Russian  Soviet  Government  has  nothing 
against  —  nothing  against  capitalists  in  this  country.  All  they 
want  is  to  make  a  compromise  with  capitalists  in  this  country. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Is  not  that  a  temporary  compromise  ? 


48 

The  Witness, —  No,  not  at  all. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  I  show  you  a  paper  and  ask  you  if  you 
recognize  it? 

The  Chairman. — Are  you  through  with  your  examination, 
General  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  No,  no ;  I  have  not  started. 

The  Witness. —  It  looks  like  a  lot  of  laws  and  regulations  of 
the  Soviet  Government,  but  I  am  not  sure  that  it  is. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  I  wish  to  offer  this  in  evidence. 
(Received  in  evidence  and  marked  Exhibit  307.) 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  This  is  a  photostat  of  official  Document  No. 
8  of  the  Soviet  Government,  Section  112.  I  will  read  a  trans- 
lation : 

"Decision.  112.  About  the  assignation  of  two  million 
roubles  for  the  needs  of  the  international  revolutionary 
movement. 

"  Taking  into  consideration  that  the  Soviet  power  stands 
on  the  foundation  of  principles  of  international  solidarity 
of  the  proletariat  and  the  brotherhood  0f  the  toilers  of  all 
countries,  that  a  fight  against  war  and  imperialism  can  lead 
to  a  full  victory  only  on  an  international  .scale. 

"  The  Soviet  of  the  Peoples  Commissaries  considers  it  is 
necessary  to  come  to  the  assistance  of  the  left  international 
wing  of  the  labor  movement  of  all  countries  with  all  possible, 
and  among  those  with  pecuniary  means,  absolutely  inde- 
pendently from  the  fact  whether  these  countries  are  at  war 
with  Russia  or  in  alliance,  or  are  maintaining  a  neutral 
condition. 

"  With  these  aims  the  Soviet  of  the  Peoples  Commissaries 
decides  to  assignate  for  the  needs  of  the  revolutionary  inter- 
national movement  for  the  disposition  of  the  foreign  repre- 
sentatives of  the  Commissariat  for  foreign  affairs  two  mil- 
lion roubles. 

"  Chairman  of  the  Soviet  of  the  Peoples  Commissaries  VI. 
TJljanoff  (Lenin)—" 

Mr.  Stevenson,  (Addressing  the  witness). —  That  is  Lenine, 
ran  vou  tell  me  ? 


49 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  that  is  Lenine. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Can  you  tell  me  what  date  ? 

The  Witness,  (Examining  the  translation). —  I  don't  know 
whether  the  translation  is  made  true,  but  anyhow  it  looks  like  a 
translation  of  a  decree  of  the  23rd  of  December,  1,917.  If  you 
remember,  gentlemen,  the  time,  if  you  know  the  circumstances 
which  were  connected  with  this  decree,  you  will  immediately 
understand  that  it  was  an  offensive  measure  against,  chiefly,  the 
Imperial  German  Government  —  not  the  Imperial,  but  the  present 
German  Government,  yes,  and  the  Imperial,  too,  which  was  menac- 
ing the  existence  of  Russia  at  that  time. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  How  about  all  countries  ? 

The  Witness. —  About  all  countries,  nothing  said.  Russia  had 
most  to  do  with  the  German  Government  at  that  time.  It  was 
December,  1917,  I  repeat : — not,  at  some  time  — 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Just  a  minute.  Coming  back  to  the  proposi- 
tion of  the  position  of  the  Soviet  Government  towards  the  capital- 
ists and  capitalism,  Nicholas  Lenine  speaks  for  the  Russian  Com- 
munist party,  does  he  not  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  I  find  in  his  work  called  "  The  Soviets  at 
Work  "  the  following  on  page  10  :  "A  New  Phase  in  the  Struggle 
with  Capitalism.  We  have  defeated  the  bourgeoisie,  but  it  is  not 
yet  destroyed  or  even  completely  co.nquered.  We  must  therefore 
resort  to  a  new  and  hig-Ker  form  of  the  struggle  with  the  bour- 
geoisie; we  must  turn  from  the  very  simple  problem  of  continuing 
the  expropriation  of  the  capitalists  to.  the  more  complex  and  dif- 
ferent problem  —  the  problem  of  creating  conditions  under  which 
the  bourgeoisie  could  neither  exist  nor  come  anew  into  existence. 
It  is  clear  that  this  problem  is  infinitely  more  complicated  and  that 
we  can  have  no  Socialism  until  it  is  solved. 

(Page  10  of  "  The  Soviets  at  Work,"  was  received  in  evidence 
and  marked  Exhibit  No.  308). 

M  r.  Stevenson. —  That  is  correct,  is  it  not  ? 
The  Witness. —  It  looks  correct. 


50 

M  i .  Stovcnson. —  As  a  matter  of  fact  the  offer  apparently  made 
by  the  Soviet  Government  to  pay  the  foreign  bonds  of  the  old 
regime  is  a  matter  simply  to  bring  about  temporary  peace  and 
recognition  of  the  Soviet  Government,  is  it  no.t  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir;  to  bring  about  peace,  because  Russia 
is  not  interested  in  war  but  has  to  reconstruct  economically  the 
country  and  cannot  afford  to  spend  all  her  energies  with  WMI-. 
which  Russia  hates. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  But  in  making  such  a  payment  on  the  old 
regime  bonds,  it  will  be  going  against  the  principles  of  the  Russian 
Communist  Party,  would  it  not  ? 

The  Witness. —  No. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  It  would,  would  it  not? 

The  Witness. —  You  are  talking  about  purely  theoretical  things 
and  are  referring  them  to  some  particular  — 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Isn't  it  a  matter  of  fact  that  the  Russian 
Communist  Party  is  attempting  to  put  the  theoretical  into 
practice  ? 

The  Witness.—  Certainly. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  That  is  all. 

The  Chairman. —  Now,  General,  you  may  proceed. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Mr.  Stevenson  read  what  you  con- 
ceded I  understand  to  be  the  position  of  the  Lenine-Trotzky  Gov- 
ernment in  1917? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Now,  do  I  understand  you  to  say  that 
they  have  receded  from  that  position  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  I  should  say. 

The  Attorney-General. —  In  other  words,  what  I  call  it  they 
have  reformed,  in  some  respects? 

The  Witness. —  Well,  if  you  like  to  call  it  so. 
The  Attorney-General. —  I  say  I  would  call  it  that. 
The  Witness. —  Perhaps  (laughing).  .|      ' 


51 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Lenine  took  that  same  position  in  1918,  did 
he  not,  when  he  addressed  his  first  letter  to  American  workingmen  ? 

The  Witness. —  I  think  that  was  also  in  1918. 
Mr.   Stevenson. —  I  think  it  was  in  1917. 
The  Witness. —  I  don't  remember. 

The  Attorney-General. —  What  public  utterances  of  his  are 
there  to  show  that  he  has  had  a  change  of  heart  ? 

The  Witness. —  Well,  there  is  such  a  lot  of  talk  about  propa- 
ganda in  other  countries,  I  can  only  tell  you  that  every  govern- 
ment uses  its  propaganda  in  other  countries,  if  the  moment  suits, 
so.  it  is  not  a  secret  if  I  tell  that  the  United  States  Government  used 
to  make  propaganda  in  Germany  during  the  war  and  most  radical 
propaganda,  socialist  radical  propaganda,  so  the  same  thing  did 
Russia. 

The  Attorney  General. — Of  course,  that 'is  for  war  purposes; 
that  could  be  excused,  when  it  could  not  be  excused  when  countries 
were  not  at  war. 

The  Witness. —  Exactly.  The  Soviet  Russian  government 
applied  propaganda  against  all  countries  with  whom  it  was  at 
war.  We  sent  propaganda  later  to  the  English  soldiers,  the  French 
soldiers  and  the  Italian  soldiers  when  we  were  confronted  with 
them  face  to  face  in  the  trenches.  Xobody  can  have  something 
against  Russia  for  that,  there  is  nothing  against  that  propaganda. 

The  Attorney  General. — Isow,  we  hear  a  good  deal  from  the 
Soviet  government  in  relation  to  a  government  which  they  call 
a  capitalistic  government  ? 

The  Witness. — Yes,  sir. 

The  Attorney  General. — What  do  you  mean  when  you  refer  to 
a  government  as  a  capitalistic  government  ? 

The  Witness. — Well,  a  government  which  is  dominated  by  capi- 
talistic interests  and  any  capitalist  countries  where  capitalism  is 
developed  and  influential  and  has  power  to  dominate  a  situation, 
has  power  to  influence  any  public  institution  —  I  call  that  a  capi- 
talistic government. 

The  Attorney  General. — And  you  call  this  government,  the 
Unites  States  government,  a  capitalistic  government? 


52 

The  Witness. — Well,  it  is  a  democratic  government. 

The  Attorney  General. —  Do  you  call  it  a  capitalistic  govern- 
ment, under  your  definition  of  a  capitalistic  government  ? 

The  Witness.— No. 

The  Attorney  General. — What  do  you  call  it  ? 

The  Witness. — A  Democratic  government,  a  democratic  parlia- 
mentary government. 

The  Attorney  General. — And  not  a  capitalistic  government  in 
any  way. 

The  Witness. — "A  capitalistic  government  ".  is  a  vulgar  form 
of  speech,  which  has  a  certain  theoretical  definition.  We  cannot 
discuss  all  of  these  theoretical  questions,  the  Rand  School  will 
explain  you  all  the  definition  of  capitalistic  government. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Does  not  the  Rand  School  say  this  is  a 
capitalistic  government  ? 

The  Witness. — Let  them  .say  what  they  will. 

The  Attorney  General. — You  are  not  here  to  defend  the  Rand 
School? 

The  Witness. — No,  sir. 

The  Attorney  General. — That  is  a  job  by  itself?  Now,  I  framed 
my  question  to  suit  you,  I  thought  I  was  asking  you  for  your  defi- 
nition of  a  capitalistic  government,  which  you  gave  me;  is  that 
right  ? 

The  Witness. — Yes. 

The  Attorney  General. — Now,  I  ask  you  whether  under  that 
definition  you  call  the  United  States  government  a  capitalistic 
government  ? 

The  Witness. — I  repeat — 

The  Attorney  General. —  I  leave  :t  all  to  yourself,  your  own 
mind  and  your  — 

The  Witness. —  I  mean  if  it  is  used  in  a  vulgar  way,  it  may  give 
absolutely  a  different  impression.  Capitalism  as  understood 
theoretically  is  an  absolutely  clearly  defined  state  of  things.  So, 


53 

in  this  sense,  I  could  call  the  United  States  government  a  capital- 
istic government,  and  the  English  government  also  a  capitalistic 
government,  and  the  German  government  also. 

By  the  Attorney  General. — 

Q.  Under  the  definition  which  you  have  given  yourself  of 
capitalistic  government,  do  you  call  the  government  of  the  United 
States  a  capitalistic  government  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Mr.  Martens,  does  the  value  of  a  ruble  vary  I    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  what  is  the  relative  value  now  as  compared  with  the 
value  of  a  ruble  in  1917,  can  you  tell  me?  A.  In  1917  a  ruble 
was  worth,  I  think,  25  cents;  now  it  is  worth  about  6  cents. 

Q.  How  long  ago  was  it  that  you  learned  that  they  were  worth 
six  cents  —  that  the  value  of  a  ruble  was  6  cents  ?  A.  I  learned  in 
the  papers,  the  quotations. 

Q.  They  have  been  as  low  as  2  cents,  have  they  not  ?  A.  As  I 
understand,  the  Kolchak  rubles  went  to  one  cent  and  half  a  cent. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. — Would  those  Russian  bonds  be  paid 
in  rubles? 

The  Witness. — No,  in  American  money. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. — They  were  to  be  paid  in  American 
money  and  then  redeemed! 

The  Witness. — Yes. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. — Not  in  rubles  ? 

The  Witness. —  No,  of  course  not. 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  I  think  it  appears  -  -  but  to  get  the  angle  of  it  —  you  were 
furnished  some  credentials  from  the  Russian  Soviet  Government 
after  you  came  to  the  United  States  ?  A.  Yes,  sir,  I  was. 

Q.  What,  briefly,  are  those  credentials  ?  A.  Appointing  me  to 
represent  the  People's  Commissariat  for  Foreign  Affairs  here  in 
the  United  States. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  Lenme-Trotsky  government  ?  A.  Yes,  sir, 
if  you  prefer  to  call  it  the  Lenine-Trotzky  government.  I  would 
prefer  to  call  it  the  Soviet  government. 

Q.  Well,  I  am  not  particular,  just  so  that  we  understand  what 
we  are  talking  about  —  Soviet  government,  you  said  ?  A.  Yes. 


54 

Q.  Now,  how  long  after  the  organization  of  the  .Soviet  govern- 
ment were  those  credentials  issued  to  you  (  A.  I  think  about 
fifteen  months  after  the  establishment  of  the  government. 

Q.  And  that  would  be  about  what  time?  A.  About  January, 
1919. 

Q.  January,  1919?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  received  by  you  here  in  New  York?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  ?     A.  Received  by  messenger. 

Q.  Do  you  object  to  telling  me  who  the  messenger  was?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  decline  to  tell  the  Committee  who  the  messenger  was 
who  actually  delivered  the  papers  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  ?  A.  First  of  all,  I  am  bound  in  honor  not  to  tell  who 
it  is ;  secondly,  all  these  matters  refer  to  my  communications  with 
the  Soviet  government,  which  I  regard  as  privileged. 

Q.  Were  the  papers  sealed  ?     A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  the  agent  who  delivered  them 
to  you  knew  what  was  contained  in  the  package  that  he  was  de- 
livering? A.  Yes,  he  knew  about  it. 

Q.  Where  are  those  particular  papers  now  ?  A.  Those  particu- 
lar papers  are  in  the  State  Department  at  Washington. 

Q.  And  how  long  have  they  been  there?  A.  I  sent  them,  as 
far  as  I  remember,  the  15th  of  March,  1919. 

Q.  And  you  sent  them  to  the  State  Department,  or  to  some 
particular  person?  A.  Addressed  to  Mr.  Lansing. 

Q.  The  Secretary  of  State  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  any  acknowledgment  of  the  receipt  of  the 
papers  from  Mr.  Lansing  ?  A.  No,  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  any  acknowledgment  from  any  representa- 
tive of  the  Secretary  of  State  of  the  receipt  of  the  papers  ?  A.  No, 
I  did  not. 

Q.  And  you  have  no  personal  information  that  they  were  ever 
received  at  Washington  ?  A.  Well,  as  far  as  I  know,  there  is  no 
doubt  that  the  papers  were  received. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  talk  with  Postmaster-General  Burleson  on  the 
subject ?  A.  No,  I  did  not;  but  it  was  stated  by  one  of  the  officials 
in  the  State  Department  to  one  of  the  newspapers  —  I  think  it 
was  the  New  York  Times  —  that  the*  papers  were  received. 

Q.  You  say  in  the  New  York  Times  a  statement  purporting  (o 
come  from  the  Washington  correspondent  that  the  papers  had 
been  received  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 


55 

Q.  And  that  is  the  only  information  you  have  on  the  subject 
as  to  whether  or  not  they  had  been  thus  received?  A.  Yes,  sir. 
The  standpoint  of  the  State  Department  in  regard  to  the  matter 
is  that  as  long  as  the  Soviet  government  is  not  recognized,  the 
representative  of  the  Soviet  government  is  also  not  recognized  as 
such. 

Q.  Who  told  you  that  ?  A.  On  several  occasions  Mr.  Lansing 
and  other  gentlemen  from  the  State  Department  expressed  them- 
selves publicly. 

Q.  Well,  have  you  ever  had  any  talk  at  all  with  Secretary 
Lansing  on  the  subject  ?  A.  No,  I  have  not. 

Q.  And  did  anyone  tell  you  that  Lansing  told  him  the  reason 
you  have  just  detailed  ?  A.  Well,  it  was  the  general  talk. 

Q.  Well,  it  was  purely  hearsay  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well,  now,  you  have  never  been  over  to  Washington  to  see 
whether  those  papers  were  on  file  there  ?  A.  No. 

Q.  Have  you  been  to  Washington  for  any  purpose?  A.  Yes, 
I  have. 

Q.  When  last?     A.  About  five  months  ago. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  there  but  once  ?    A.  Only  once,  yes. 

Q.  Only  once  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  attempt  to  see  the  Secretary  of  State?  A.  Yes, 
I  did. 

Q.  You  did  not  get  an  audience  with  him?  A.  I  did  not  at- 
tempt it  officially. 

Q.  Well,  I  did  not  say  anything  about  "  officially."  You  at- 
tempted to  have  an  audience  with  the  Secretary  of  State  ?  A. 
Yes. 

Q.  And  you  did  not  succeed  ?    A.  Yes. 

The  Chairman. —  You  say  you  did  not  ? 
The  Witness. —  No,  I  did  not. 

The  Attorney-General. —  There  was  a  little  question  as  to  the 
meaning. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Now,  you  were  claiming  recognition  from  the  State  De- 
partment by  reason  of  being  the  Ambassador  of  the  country  that 
you  were  representing?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  usual  formalities  in  the  presen- 
tation by  an  Ambassador  of  his  credentials  to  our  government  ? 
A.  No,  sir,  I  am  not  familiar  with  those  things. 


56 

Q.  Well,  did  you  ever  hear  of  any  other  duly  accredited  am- 
bassador sending  his  important  documents  to  Washington  by  mail  ? 
A.  No,  I  did  not. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  take  any  pains  to  find  out  from  those  who 
knew  the  usual  method  of  the  presentation  of  such  important 
papers?  A.  I  don't  know  how  to  answer  you. 

Q.  Did  you  take  any  pains  to  find  out  (  Did  you  make  any 
inquiry  of  anybody  who  would  know  what  the  form  was  of  pre- 
senting papers  of  that  character,  how  they  usually  are  presented 
to  our  officials?  A.  When  I  received  my  papers,  the  first  thing  I 
did  was  to  sit  down  and  write  a  memorandum  to  the  State  Depart- 
ment explaining  my  purpose. 

Q.  You  did  not  answer  my  question.  A.  Yes,  I  will  answer 
it  —  and  all  I  cared  about  was  to  explain  to  the  State  Department 
what  I  am  and  what  for  I  am  here,  and  send  these  papers  asking 
the  Secretary  of  State  to  give  me  an  interview.  That  is  all  I  did. 
That  is  all  I  cared  to  do. 

Q.  My  question  is  —  if  I  have  made  it  plain  —  if  you  made 
any  inquiry  of  anyone  who  knew  what  particular  form  was  usually 
pursued  by  the  Ambassadors  —  those  representing  foreign  coun- 
tries —  in  the  presentation  of  their  credentials  to  the  State  De- 
partment in  Washington  ?  A.  No,  I  did  not  make  any  inquiry. 

Q.  You  wrote  Lansing  a  letter,  then,  before  you  sent  those 
papers  over  there  ?  A.  I  sent  my  letter  with  these  papers. 

Q.  You  sent  your  letter  with  these  papers  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  to  that  you  never  had  any  sort  of  acknowledgment  from 
the  State  Department  ?  A.  No. 

By  Assemblyman  McElligott : 

Q.  Is  there  a  representative  of  the  old  Russian  Imperial  Gov- 
ernment at  Washington  to-day  —  the  Ambassador  of  Russia  —  is 
he  still  in  Washington?  A.  Not  any  representative  of  the  Im- 
perial Government,  but  a  representative  of  the  Revolutionary  Gov- 
ernment of  Kerensky. 

Q.  What  is  his  name?    A.  Bakhmeteff. 

Q.  He  is  a  resident  of  Washington  now?  A.  Yes,  as  far  as  I 
understand. 

Q.  And  what  authority  has  he  in  regard  to  Russian  matters? 
A.  No  authority  whatever. 

Q.  ^Vell,  did  he  protest  against  your  introduction  and  the  re- 
ceipt of  your  papers  in  Washington  when  they  were  sent  there, 
do  you  know  ?  A.  I  don't  know. 


57 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  connection  with  him  in  any  way?  A. 
No,  not  at  all. 

Q.  Well,  has  he  any  standing  in  Washington  as  the  representa- 
tive of  the  Russian  Government  at  the  present  time  ?  A.  As  far 
as  I  know,  he  has. 

Q.  Well,  he  is  recognized,  is  he?  Is  he  recognized  by  the 
United  States  as  the  representative  of  Russia  in  the  United 
States?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  He  is  the  recognized  representative?  A.  Yes,  but  as  a 
representative  of  what>  nobody  knows. 

Q.  But  he  is  recognized  as  such,  is  he  not  ?  A.  Not  one  lawyer 
in  the  world  will  explain  the  nature  of  Mr.  Bakhmeteff. 

Q.  I  did  not  ask  about  any  lawyers ;  I  simply  asked  the  fact  of 
whether  he  is  recognized.  A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  He  is  recognized  by  this  government  as  the  representative  of 
Russia  ?  A.  Of  Russia,  or  maybe  Siberia  —  I  don't  know. 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  Well,  he  was  there  as  the  duly  accredited  representative  of 
the  Russian  Government  before  this  change  in  the  form  of  their 
government  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  has  continued  to  stay  there  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  there  is  no  other  representative  of  the  Russian  Govern- 
ment, so  far  as  you  know,  in  this  country,  excepting  the  one  in 
Washington  and  yourself  as  the  representative  of  the  Russian 
Soviet  Government?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  say  yes,  you  mean  you  two  are  the  only  two  who  are  in 
any  way  representing  the  interests  of  Russia  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  of  course  up  until  now  you  have  received  no  recog- 
nition as  the  Ambassador  of  your  country  from  the  government 
of  this  country  ?  A.  Not  yet,  no. 

Q.  These  papers  were  sent  on  to  the  Department  of  State  about 
the  middle  of  March,  1919  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Had  you  already  opened  an  office  here?  A.  Yes,  I  imme- 
diately opened  an  office  at  299  Broadway. 

Q.  Before  you  sent  these  papers  on?     A.  No,  simultaneously. 

Q.  What  had  been  carried  on  in  the  office  that  you  opened  at 
299  Broadway  before  you  established  your  headquarters  there? 
A.  It  was  the  Russian  Information  Bureau. 

Q.  Nuorteva  in  charge  of  it  ?    A.  Yes. 


58 

Q.  How  long  had  you  known  him?    A.  Since  the  end  of  1918. 

Q.  And  you  came  here  —  so  that  we  won't  be  confused  in  our 
dates "i  A.  January,  1916. 

Q.  And  what  had  you  done  in  this  country  from  January, 
1916,  down  until  the  time  you  received  this  appointment  as  the 
representative  of  the  Russian  Soviet  Government  in  March, 
1919?  A.  I  was  acting  as  the  representative  of  a  big  Russian 
steel  firm. 

Q.  Did  you  have  an  office  ?  A.  Yes,  I  had  an  office  at  the 
beginning  in  the  Hotel  McAlpin,  and  then  I  haven't  had  any 
particular  office. 

Q.  How  long  did  you  have  an  office  at  the  Hotel  McAlpin  as 
the  representative  of  this  steel  company?  A.  About  a  year. 
There  was  a  gentleman  by  the  name  of  Mr.  Gibson  who  was  at 
that  time  the  representative  of  this  firm,  and  when  he  left  at  the 
end  of  19 18  I  was  representing  the  firm. 

Q.  Were  you  under  pay  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  From  what  company  ?    A.  From  Demedoff  Cont  Sandonoto. 

Q.  Now  that  was  a  Russian  corporation  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  their  business  was  in  Russia  ?    A.  In  Russia ;  yes,  sir. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  deal  with  in  this  country;  who  were  you 
endeavoring  to  make  contracts  with  ?  A.  I  was  buying  for  this 
firm. 

Q.  You  were  buying?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Buying  products  here?     A.  Yes,  sir;  machinery. 

Q.  Did  you  actually  buy  machinery  ?  A.  Oh,  yes,  quite  a  lot, 
and  shipped  it  on  to  Russia. 

Q.  That  was  before  the  organization  or  formation  of  the  Soviet 
Government  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  did  you  receive  money  from  this  company  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  money  outside  of  your  monthly  or  weeklv  wage  ?  A. 
Yes. 

Q.  And  expenses?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  sum  of  money  of  this  company  on  hand 
at  the  time  of  the  receipt  of  the  papers  from  the  Soviet  Govern- 
ment appointing  you  the  ambassador?  A.  Yes,  I  had  about 
$20,000. 

Q.  Now  did  you  use  any  of  that  money  in  the  organization  of 
your  bureau  ?  A.  No,  not  a  cent. 

Q.  And  did  you  then  stop  the  employment  —  did  you  cease  then 
to  be  employed  by  this  Russian  corporation  in  the  purchase  of 
machinery  or  products  of  any  kind  ?  A.  I  practically  ceased 


59 

because  no  shipment  was  possible  to  Russia,  but  I  had  outstand- 
ing orders  which  I  paid  by  and  by.  That  is  all  that  I  have  done 
for  this  firm. 

Q.  You  say  you  had  about  $20,000  on  hand  from  this  company 
at  that  time  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  became  of  it  ?    A.  I  spent  it. 

Q.  I  just  asked  you  if  you  spent  any  of  the  money  you  had  on 
hand  ?  A.  But  not  for  the  bureau ;  you  asked  me  if  I  spent  it  for 
the  bureau ;  I  spent  it  in  paying  for  orders  for  this  firm. 

Q.  You  spent  it  by  paying  for  things  for  which  you  had  con- 
tracted? A.  Yes. 

Q.  Were  they  shipped  ?    A.  No,  they  were  not  shipped. 

Q.   They  are  not  shipped  yet  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  Now  do  you  know  what  became  of  the  company  after  the 
Soviet  Government  was  organized  ?  A.  Yes,  I  know. 

Q.  Taken  over  by  the  Soyiet  Government,  wasn't  it  ?  A.  No, 
it  was  partly  destroyed  by  the  Kolchak  bands  and  Czecho-Slovaks, 
and  now  it  is  under  the  jurisdiction  of  the 'Soviets. 

Q.  Have  they  made  any  demand  for  the  shipment  of  the 
machinery  or  products  that  you  purchased  with  this  $20,000  ?  A. 
They  didn't  mention  it. 

Q.  As  far  as  you  know  they  don't  know  anything  about  it  ?  A. 
No. 

Q.  My  information  came  that  you  had  stated  that  you  mingled 
this  $20,000  with  your  own  money,  or  with  the  Russian  Soviet 
money  that  you  had  received.  A.  No,  it  isn't  true ;  I  can  prove  it. 

Q.  I  say  possibly  I  am  mistaken  about  my  information,  but 
if  I  have  been  so  informed,  that  isn't  the  fact  ?  A.  It  isn't  the 
fact.  no. 

Q.  Is  your  Bureau  still  at  299  Broadway?  A.  No,  it  is  110 
West  40th  Street. 

Q.  And  when  did  you  move  from  299  Broadway  to  the  new 
quarters  ?  A.  I  think  it  was  April  of  this  year. 

Q.  So  you  actually  moved  from  there  before  you  received  - 
A.  No,  that  was  March. 

Q.  You  didn't  move?     A.  About  a  month  later  I  moved. 

Q.  What  office  force  have  you  in  your  new  quarters?  A.  I 
have  about  30  men  working. 

Q.   Consisting  of  clerks  and  stenographers?     A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  clerks?  A.  About  eight  clerks,  ten  stenogra- 
phers. 


60 

Q.  What  are  the  duties  of  the  other  employees?  A.  Why 
my  office  is  divided  into  separate  departments,  commercial  depart- 
ment, publicity  department,  economical  department,  statistical 
department,  and  technical  department. 

Q.  Any  legal  department?  A.  A  legal  department.  Each 
department  is  in  charge  of  a  gentleman. 

Q.  Who  reports  to  you  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  are  responsible  to  you  for  the  conduct  of  the  various 
departments  over  which  they  preside?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  I  take  it  that  you  assume  full  responsibility  for  the 
acts  of  the  heads  of  these  departments  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  to  go  back  a  moment  to  the  date  of  the  receipt  of 
your  credentials  in  March,  which  you  say  were  delivered  to  you 
by  a  special  messenger,  did  you  receive  any  other  communication 
in  the  form  of  letters  or  other  documents  at  that  time?  A.  Yes, 
sii,  I  am  receiving  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  No,  no,  I  am  back  now  to  the  date  when  you  received  your 
official  announcement  of  your  appointment  as  ambassador  to  the 
Soviet  government  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  By  the  same  messenger  who  delivered  those  papers  to  you, 
did  you  receive  any  other  papers  or  documents?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  among  them  were  there  instructions;  did  you  receive 
instructions?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  From  the  Soviet  government  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  have  those  now?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  could  produce  them  if  you  desired  to?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  do  you  take  the  same  position  with  those  papers  that 
you  did  with  the  other?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  decline  to  produce  them  for  the  inspection  of  the 
Committee?  A.  Yes,  sir,  unless  my  government  agrees  to  it. 

By  Assemblyman  McElligott: 

Q.  How  long  would  it  take  for  you  to  get  in  touch  with  your 
government  to  find  out  whether  your  government  would  be  will- 
ing to  disclose  those  documents  or  not?  A.  About  two  months. 

Q.  About  two  months  ?     A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  would  have  to  send  an  ambassador  to  your  government 
and  would  have  to  have  him  come  back?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  would  your  messenger  go?  A.  I  decline  to  answer 
that. 


By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Why  do  you  decline  to  give  the  Committee  the  information 
as  to  the  way  a  messenger  would  reach  your  country  ?  A.  I  will 
explain  it,  Mr.  Newton.  Because  it  is  not  within  the  scope  of  an 
investigation  of  this  Committee. 

Q.  Is  that  your  own  reason  ?     A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  other  words,  you  don't  think  it  is  any  of  their  business, 
to  be  perfectly  plain,  so  we  will  understand  ?  A.  It  is  not  within 
the  scope  of  the  investigation  of  this  Committee. 

Q.  Who  told  you  that  ?  A.  Well,  I  know  what  this  Commit- 
tee is  for. 

Q.  Did  somebody  tell  you  it  was  not  any  business  of  this  Com- 
mittee how  you  communicated  with  your  own  government, 
whether  it  was  open  and  above  board  or  secretly  ?  A.  No.  I  told 
myself. 

Q.  You  told  it  to  yourself  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  None  of  your  legal  staff  gave  you  that  opinion  as  a  lawyer  ? 
A.  I  have  also  the  opinion  of  my  lawyers. 

Q.  They  agreed  with  you  about  that  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  there  any  objection  to  telling  us  what  particular  one  of 
your  lawyers  concurred  in  your  judgment  on  that  proposition? 
A.  I  shouldn't  care  to  tell  that. 

Q.  Don't  want  to  tell  ?     A.  No. 

Q.  Aren't  ashamed  of  his  advice  ?  A.  No,  I  am  not  ashamed ; 
I  think  the  advice  is  quite  right. 

Q.  But  you  don't  want  to  tell  us  which  one  of  them  it  was? 
A.  I  think  all  of  them. 

Q.  Was  it  Weinstein  —  you  said  you  didn't  care  to  tell  ?  (No 
answer. ) 

Q.  Will  you  give  the  Committee  a  list  of  your  staff  of  lawyers 
up  to  date?  A.  Will  I  give  it? 

Q.  Yes,  the  names  of  them.    A.  Yes,  certainly. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  interest,  I  don't  suppose  it  is  of  any  great 
concern ;  I  would  like  to  have  it.  A.  Now  ? 

Q.  Yes,  the  names  of  them;  can  you  do  it  offhand?  A.  Yes. 
The  Economical  and  Statistical  Department  is  in  charge  of  Prof. 
Hourwich. 

Q.  Don't  misunderstand  me ;  I  asked  you  for  your  staff  of 
lawyers,  up  to  date.  I  may  take  that  up  step  by  step  as  I  ask 
some  questions  about  the  particular  workings  of  your  office. 
A.  My  lawyers  are  Mr.  Hillquit  and  Mr.  Recht. 


Q.  Morris  Hillquit?    A.  Yes,  and  Charles  Recht. 

Q.  I  thought  you  told  me  this  morning  that  you  had  three 
lawyers;  did  I  misunderstand  you?  A.  Well,  officially  Prof. 
Hourwich  is  helping  me  as  a  lawyer,  but  his  official  capacity  is 
not  as  my  lawyer,  but  as  manager  of  the  statistical  department. 

Attorney-General  Newton. —  Mr.  Chairman,  it  is  suggested 
that  we  take  our  recess  at  this  time. 

The  Chairman  (Mr.  Mai-tin). —  The  Committee  will  take  a 
recess  until  2:15. 

(Recess  until  2:15.) 


AFTERNOON  SESSION  — 2:35  P.  M. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Committee  will  come  to  order.  You  may 
proceed,  General,  with  the  examination  of  Mr.  Martens.  Is  Mr. 
Martens  here? 

The  Attorney-General. —  He  is  here. 

By  the  Attorney-General : 
Q.  Mr.  Martens  — 

The  Witness. —  Mr.  Chairman,  will  you  allow  me  to  explain 
why  I  declined  to  surrender  certain  of  my  papers  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  Some  explanation  beyond  the  one  you 
gave  this  morning? 

The  Witness. —  Yes. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Yes,  I  am  going  to  let  you  explain. 

The  Chairman. —  I  did  not  hear  what  you  said. 

The  Attorney-General. —  The  witness  wants  the  privilege  of 
making  a  further  explanation  why  he  declined  to  produce  some  of 
his  papers.  I  am  inclined,  if  the  Chairman  is  willing,  to  permit 
it,  and  will  give  him  very  great  latitude. 

The  Witness. —  I  declined  to  do  it  on  the  ground  that  it  has 
been  held  by  the  United  States  Supreme  Court,  in  the  matter  of 
the  Pacific  Railroad  Commission  (32  Federal  Reporter,  24-1), 


63 

that  Congress  cannot  compel  the  production  of  private  books  and 
papers  of  citizens  for  its  inspection,  except  in  the  course  of  judi- 
cial proceedings ;  and  it  has  been  explained,  in  the  same  decision, 
that  an  investigation  of  a  legislative  committee  is  not  a  judicial 
proceeding.  I  am  advised  by  counsel  that  the  powers,  as  a  Com- 
mittee of  the  New  York  Legislature  under  the  Constitution,  are 
no  broader  than  the  powers  of  a  committee  of  the  United  States 
Congress.  Notwithstanding  this  privilege,  I  have  produced  for 
the  inspection  of  your  Committee  all  my  books  and  papers  relating 
to  my  own  activities  in  the  State  of  New  York.  I  insist,  however, 
on  my  privilege  under  the  decision  of  the  United  States  Supreme 
Court,  insofar  as  my  correspondence  with  my  government  is 
concerned. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Who  prepared  that  statement  for  you?    A.  My  lawyers. 

Q.  And  at  their  suggestion  you  ask  the  privilege  of  reading  it 
into  the  record  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  did  not  read  you  any  provision  of  the  Code  of  Civil 
Procedure  of  this  State,  did  they?  A.  I  do  not  know  what  you 
mean. 

Q.  I  hold  in  my  hand  what  is  supposed  to  be  the  law  of  this 
State,  the  Code  of  Civil  Procedure,  which  defines  certain  law  and 
practice.  Did  counsel  call  your  attention  to  any  provisions  of  this 
Code  in  answering  the  proposition  that  you  have  just  discussed  ? 
A.  No,  Mr.  Newton. 

Q.  Well,  will  you  make  a  little  minute  on  your  papers  there 
and  ask  them  to  read  section  656  of  the  Code  of  Civil  Procedure, 
and  ask  them  if  they  do  not  want  to  advise  you  to-morrow  to 
change  your  mind.  A.  (Witness  makes  note  as  requested.) 

Q.  About  how  much  is  the  payroll)  per  week,  of  your  office? 
A.  About  $1,200, 

Q.  And  does  that  include  your  own  compensation?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  has  that  been  about  the  average  since  March  15th? 
A.  Since  April. 

Q.  Since  April?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  what  is  the  source  —  or  from  what  source  do  you  get 
the  money  to  carry  on  this  office?  A.  From  the  Soviet  govern- 
ment. 

Q.  All  of  it  ?    A.  All  of  it,  yes. 

Q.  Have  you  accepted  contributions  from  any  other  source? 
A.  No,  I  haven't  any  contributions. 


64 

Q.  Not  a  dollar  ?    A.  Not  a  dollar. 

The  Chairman. —  How  much  was  that  payroll  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  $1,200  a  week. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Now,  have  you  had  any  other  expenses  except  the  payroll  of 
your  office  force  and  the  rent  ?  A.  I  had  expenses  in  connection 
with  the  publication  of  our  papers,  "  Soviet  Russia." 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  expenses  of  your  organization  there 
except  the  publication  of  this  paper  and  the  payment  of  the  rent 
of  your  office  and  the  office  force  \  A.  No,  that  is  all. 

Q.   Including  yourself,  of  course?     A.  Yes. 

Q.   Who  fixes  your  compensation?     A.  I  myself. 

Q.  You  have  never  had  any  arrangement  with  your  govern- 
ment as  to  how  much  you  should  receive  ?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  take  what  you  think  your  services  are  worth  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  And  you  take  it  from  the  money  that  has  been  furnished  by 
the  Soviet  government  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  do  you  receive  these  moneys  from  the  'Soviet  govern- 
ment ?  A.  It  is  sent  to  me  direct. 

Q.  Well,  in  cash  ?    A.  In  cash,  yes. 

Q.  Regular  money?     A.  Regular  money. 

Q.  And  by  messenger,  I  take  it  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  what  sums?  A.  In  sums  up  to  about  twenty  to 
twenty-five  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  At  a  time  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  the  total  up  till  now  has  been  about  what  ?  A.  About 
sixty  to  seventy  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  When  did  you  receive  the  last  money  •  A.  About  five  weeks 
ago. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  there  is  any  more  on  the  way  ? 
A.  Why,  I  don't  know.  I  hope  there  is. 

Q.  And  you  have  no  way  of  knowing  it  until  it  is  actually 
handed  to  you  just  how  much  is  coming,  or  how,  or  when  ?  A.  No. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  me  who  handed  you  any  one  of  these  amounts  ? 
A.  No,  I  can't  tell  you,  Mr.  Newton. 

Q.  What?     A.  I  cannot  tell  you. 

Q.  You  do  not  mean  you  cannot  tell ;  you  mean  you  decline  to 
tell?  A.  Yes. 


65 

Q.  And  for  the  same  reason  you  have  given  in  your  refusal  to 
answer  other  inquiries  which  have  been  made,  which  you  have  re- 
fused to  answer  \  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  other  words,  your  refusal  to  answer  that  and  similar 
questions  is  based  upon  the  proposition  that  you  are  the  duly 
accredited  representative  of  the  Soviet  government  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  really  stand  in  the  same  position  as  though  your  govern- 
ment had  been  recognized  by  this  country  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Although,  as  a  matter  of  fact  —  there  is  no  dispute  about  it 
-  there  has  been  no  auch  recognition  ?  A.  Not  by  the  United 
States  Government;  but  the  United  States  Government  did  not 
express  itself. 

Q.  Well,  they  have  never,  to  your  knowledge,  in  any  way  rec- 
ognized the  Russian  Soviet  Government  ?  A.  No,  they  have  not. 

Q.  And  you  have  taken  their  absolute  silence  on  the  subject  as  a 
declination  to  so  recognize  your  Government,  have  you  not  ? 
A.  No,  not  exactly. 

Q.  Well,  have  you  taken  their  absolute  silence  on  the  subject 
as  an  acquiescence  of  recognition?  A.  I  have  taken  it  that  the 
moment  is  not  opportune  to  deal  with  the  Soviet  Government. 

Q.  That  the  officials  in  charge  have  not  yet  had  nerve  enough 
to  decide  the  question  one  way  or  the  other?  A.  I  don't  know 
whether  they  have  had  nerve  enough  or  not,  but  the  fact  is  they 
have  not  expressed  themselves. 

Q.  And  you  have  been  willing  to  accept  the  refusal  to  act  at  all 
as  a  possible  conclusion  that  they  might  favor  your  government? 
A.  I  hope  they  will  favor  it. 

Q.  You  hope  they  will,  but  do  you  accept  their  refusal  to  act  at 
all  as  an  indication  that  they  might  recognize  your  government  ? 
A.  Yes,  I  do. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  only  hope  you  have?  A.  I  have  several 
other  hopes. 

Q.  You  have  other  hopes  ?     A.   Yes. 

Q.  Wliat  are  they  ?  A.  The  whole  political  situation  of  the 
world ;  the  business  negotiations  which  are  being  conducted  now 
between  my  government  and  other  governments. 

Q.  Well,  do  you  think  that  the  action  of  any  other  government 
would  influence  our  government  here?  A.  It  is  my  heartiest 
wish. 

Q.  I  understand  that,  but  do  you  have  any  real  hope  of  it;  is 
your  wish  founded  on  any  real  hope  ?  A.  Yes. 

3 


66 

Q.  Of  course,  the  old  savin-;,  1  assume,  applies  there,  of  u  If 
wishes  were  horses  ? "  A.  1  feel  about  the  same,  except  that  it 
is  a  little  bit  more  than  horses. 

Q.  This  money,  when  it  comes  to  you  from  the  representative 
of  your  government,  as  it  is  handed  to  YOU,  is  it  in  cash  ?  A.  It 
is  in  cash,  yes. 

Q.  And  have  you  ever  made  a  deposit  in  any  l>ank,  in  cash,  as 
high  as  twenty  thousand  dollars  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  When?  A.  I  don't  rememlx>r  the  exact  date,  but  I  have 
had  in  my  bank  at  times  about  twenty  to  twenty-five  thousand 
dollars. 

Q.  I  understand  that,  but  that  is  not  the  question.  I  want  to 
know  if  there  was  ever  a  day  when  you  went  into  any  bank  in  New 
York  and  deposited  twenty  thousand  dollars  in  cash  at  one  time? 
A.  No,  not  at  one  time. 

Q.  What  is  the  highest  sum,  or  highest  amount,  you.  ever 
deposited  at  any  one  time?  A.  I  think  about  ten  thousand 
dollars. 

Q.  And  at  those  times  you  had  larger  sums  upon  your  person  ? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  carried  the  cash  around  with  you  rather  than  to 
make  the  deposits?  A.  I  probably  carried  it  in  my  safe  deposit 
at  the  bank. 

Q.  What  is  your  reason  in  taking,  say,  $20,000  from  your 
government  in  cash,  putting  $10,000  in  the  bank  and  keeping  the 
other  $10,000  on  your  person  or  in  your  safe  deposit  box,  if  you 
had  a  reason?  A.  Well,  no  particular  reason,  but  I  am  keeping 
always  as  much  money  as  I  approximately  need  for  a  wreek  or  two. 

Q.  You  pay  most  of  your  obligations  by  check,  do  you  not? 
A.  By  check. 

Q.  So  that  money  which  you  keep  in  your  pocket  or  keep  in 
the  safe  deposit  box  you  didn't  use  for  current  expenses  ?  A.  No, 
I  did  not. 

Q.  The  reason  you  have  given  me  isn't  a  very  good  reason,  is 
it?  A.  Why? 

Q.  The  reason  you  just  gave  me  isn't  a  very  good  reason  in 
answer  to  my  inquiry  ?  A.  The  money  is  just  as  safe  in  my  safe 
deposit  as  in  the  bank.  It  doesn't  give  me  any  interest, 

Q.  It  is  just  as  safe  in  your  pocket  if  some  of  these  New  York 
fellows  don't  find  out  you  are  carrying  it  around.  A.  I  don't 
carry  it  in  my  pocket. 


6T 

Q.  Where  is  your  safe  deposit  box  ?  A.  Equitable  Trust  Com- 
pany. 

Q.  And  have  you  any  large  sum's  of  cash  in  that  now?  A. 
Not  now. 

Q.  How  much  would  say  off-hand  that  you  have  on  hand  in 
cash  in  your  safe  deposit  box  ?  A.  At  the  present  moment,  noth- 
ing. 

Q.  What  was  the  last  sum  of  any  amount  that  you  had  in  the 
box?  A.  About  $15,000. 

Q.  And  when  was  that  ?    A.  A  few  months  ago. 

Q.  Did  you  take  it  all  out  one  time?  A.  Yes  —  no,  gradually; 
excuse  me. 

Q.  Did  these  lawyers  that  you  have  hired,  that  you  have 
mentioned  here,  know  about  that,  about  the  cash  ?  A.  The 
lawyers  ? 

Q.  Yes.     A.  What  has  it  to  do  with  the  lawyers  ? 

Q.  Doesn't  the  money  you  have  got  have  any  relation  to  the 
lawyers  which  you  hire?  A.  I  don't  understand  the  question. 

Q.  Now  you  have  already  testified  to  the  amount  of  money  that 
you  had  received  from  your  government  up  to  August  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  were  examined  over  at  the  Attorney-General's  office 
and  gave  them  some  figures  over  there?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  have  the  figures  of  the  amounts  at  those  times  cor- 
rectly in  your  mind?  A.  Approximately. 

Q.  March,  1919,  $20,000?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  April,  1919,  $20,000?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  May,  1919,  $10,000?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  July,  1919,  $20,000?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  So  that  made  a  total  that  you  testified  that  you  had  received 
from  the  Soviet  Government  up  to  possibly  and  including  July,  of 
$70,000?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now  how  much  did  you  tell  me  you  had  received  since  ?  A. 
$20,000. 

Q.  So  that  the  sum  total  of  the  moneys  you  are  willing  to 
swear  you  have  received  from  the  Russian  Government  is  about 
$90,000?  A.  About  $90,000,  yes. 

Q.  And  the  very  last  item  which  you  received  was  how  long 
ago?  A.  About  five  or  six  weeks  ago. 

Q.  Haven't  you  received  any  in  November?  A.  November, 
no. 

Q.  Not  any  in  November?    A.  No. 


68 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  anyone  in  the  Bureau  has 
received  any  money  from  any  source  from  the  Russian  Soviet 
Government  except  you?  A.  No,  nobody  receives  any  money. 

Q.  A' olxxly  receives  any  money  except  you?    A.  Except  me. 

Q.  Iff  understand  you  correctly,  every  dollar  of  this  $00,000 
has  been  handed  to  you  by  gome  agency  of  the  Soviet  Government 
in  cash  '*  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  all  in  American  money '{  A.  Xo,  not  quite.  Some  of 
it  was  in  foreign  money. 

Q.  How  much  of  it  was  in  American  money?  A.  About  a 
quarter  of  this  money  was  —  three-quarters  of  this  money  was  in 
American  money. 

Q.  About  one-fourth  was  in—  A.  Swedish,  Danish,  Norwe- 
gian and  Dutch. 

Q.  But  all  in  the  form  of  cash.     A.  All  in  the  form  of  cash. 

Q.  What  do  you  do  with  the  foreign  money?  A.  I  deposit  it 
in  my  bank. 

Q.  You  deposited  that  as  cash  and  it  was  accepted  by  the  bank 
as  cash  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  With  the  American  valuation  of  the  particular  money? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  form  was  the  American  money,  gold,  silver,  bills? 
A.  Bills. 

Q.  And  the  demoninations,  large  or  small  ?  A.  Large  denomi- 
nations. 

Q.  How  large,  the  largest?    A.  Not  less  than  $100. 

Q.  And  how  much  larger,  if  anything?  A.  Up  to  a  thousand 
dollars. 

Q.  Some  thousand  dollars  bills  ?    A.  Some  a  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  Do  you  give  any  receipt  to  the  person  who  makes  the  deliv- 
ery ?  A.  No,  the  receipts  are  not  necessary. 

Q.  Whether  they  are  necessary  or  not,  you  don't  give  any? 
A.  No,  I  don't  give  any. 

Q.  And  there  is  no  acknowledgedment  on  your  part  to  your 
government  of  the  receipt  of  a  single  dollar  of  this  money  ?  A.  I 
report  to  my  government  for  every  cent  of  money  I  am  receiving. 

The  Chairman. —  You  are  what  ? 

The  Witness. —  I  am  reporting  to  my  government  about  every 
cent  of  money  I  am  receiving. 

Q.  How  do  you  make  those  reports  ?    A.  I  am  sending  reports. 


Q.  By  mail  ?     A.  Partly  by  mail,  partly  by  messenger. 

Q.  When  you  send  a  report  of  the  expenditure  of  your  money 
by  mail,  where  do  you  send  it  ?  A.  I  decline  to  answer  it. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  me  whether  or  not  you  send  it  directly  to  your 
own  country  ?  A.  No,  I  cannot  send  it  directly  to  my  own  conn- 
try  because  my  own  country  is  blockaded  and  I  could  not  send  any- 
thing directly.  Everything  is  sent  indirectly. 

Q.  And  I  am  to  understand  that  there  is  some  friendly  agency 
somewhere  outside  of  the  United  States  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  outside  of  your  own  country  who  transmits  those 
letters  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Or  communications?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  decline  to  tell  the  Committee  or  to  tell  me  what 
agency  that  is?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  what  is  your  reason  for  that?  A.  Same  reason,  I 
regard  my  communications  with  my  government  as  privileged. 

Q.  Has  it  ever  been  suggested  to  you  that  communications  of 
that  sort  would  be  a  violation  of  the  law  of  this  land  ?  A.  I  know 
a.  little  about  it,  but  this  kind  of  communications  are  not  viola- 
tions of  any  laws  of  this  country. 

Q.  Are  you  aware  that  there  is  some  statute,  or  was  some  stat- 
ute during  the  war,  which  is  yet,  theoretically  at  any  rate,  exist- 
ing against  communications  of  that  sort  ?  A.  The  war  was  actu- 
ally finished  the  llth  of  November,  last  year. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  that  information  ?  A.  Everybody  knows 
it,  I  suppose. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  as  a  fact  that  theoretically  a-t  any  rate  that 
we  are  still  at  war  with  Germany?  A.  Only  theoretically. 

Q.  Theoretically?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  that  is  legally  at  war  with  them  from  any  legal  stand- 
}>oint  ?  A.  No,  President  Wilson  declared  that  the  war  is  finished. 

Q.  Don't  you  know  that  he  declines  to  lift  the  ban  on  liquor 
because  we  are  still  at  war  with  Germany  ?  A.  T  don't  know  it. 

Q.  Do  you  object  to  telling  me  how  you  recognized  these  messen- 
gers who  brought  these  vasts  sums  of  money  to  you  ?  A.  They  are 
bringing  letters  from  the  Soviet  Government. 

Q.  Were  any  of  them  acquaintances  of  yours  ?    A.  No, 

Q.  A  total  stranger  would  walk  into  your  office  here  and  hand 
you  an  envelope  with  $20,000  in  it  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Hake  any  inquiry  of  you  to  identify  you  in  any  way.  or  did 
he  just  take  it  for  granted  that  you  were  the  representative  of  the 
Soviet  Government  and  hand  AT>U  $20.00O?  A.  Yes.  it  is  done. 


70 

Q.  Wanted  no  receipt  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  Didn't  get  any  >     A.  Xo. 

Q.  Do  these  teporeseotativefl  who  have  Ix-en  >o  kind  to  you  in 
the  delivery  of  these  moneys  make  any  application  to  ^<-t  ha<-k  to 
Kussia  or  to  get  out  of  this  country  (  A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  been  asked  to  interest  yuiuvelf  in  furnishing 
passports  for  them?  A.  Xo. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  interested  yourself  in  getting  pass|M>rts  for 
anybody  to  leave  this  country  '(  A.  Xot  at  all. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Is  that  true? 
The  Witness. —  Certainly  it  is  true. 

Q.  And  you  haven't  in  fact  been  in  any  way  instrumental  in 
procuring  any  passports  for  anybody  (  A.  Absolutely. 

Q.  Either  to  get  in  or  to  get  out  of  this  country  ?  A.  Absolutely. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  became  of  any  one  of  these  men  who 
delivered  these  sums  of  money  to  you,  after  they  tinished  their 
business  with  you  ?  A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Ever  call  on  you  again  ?    A.  Xo. 

Q.  Xever  came  around  and  asked  you  to  entertain  them  in  any 
way?  A.  Mr.  Newton,  I  have  to  again  decline  to  answer  your 
question.  You  go  again  to  the  same  point. 

Q.  No,  that  is  general,  I  could  not  identify  any  of  them  if  I 
saw  them  with  you.  A.  When  they  have  done  their  duty  I  don't 
care  what  they  do. 

Q.  Well,  it  is  a  fact,  as  soon  as  a  man  walks  in  and  hands  you 
$20,000  in  an  envelope  from  the  Russian  Soviet  Government  and 
says  goodby,  and  fades  away,  and  from  then  on  you  have  lost 
interest  in  him,  and  so  far  as  you  know  he  has  in  you  ?  A.  Abso- 
lutely. 

Q.  Were  they  Russian  people  who  made  these  deliveries  of  these 
funds?  A.  I  decline  to  give  the  information. 

Q.  You  are  willing  to  admit  that  no  Irishman  ever  came  in  and 
handed  you  $20,000,  aren't  you?  A.  Xo,  no  Irishman. 

The  Chairman. —  I  think  that  the  record  should  show  that  in 
each  and  every  case  where  the  witness  declines  to  answer  that  he  is 
instructed  to  answer  by  the  Committee  and  has  refused. 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  haven't  yet  asked  the  Committee. 
The  Chairman. —  Then  I  withdraw  that. 


71 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  had  this  in  mind,  that  when  I  got 
the  record,  if  there  were  any  questions  which  I  deemed  of  import- 
ance enough,  say  to-morrow,  I  would  call  the  witness'  attention 
directly  to-morrow  and  ask  that  the  question  be  directed  by  the 
Chairman  of  the  Committee  to  him  specifically  and  take  his  re- 
fusal for  such  purposes  as  the  Committee  may  want  it  to  be  used 
by  the  Committee  hereafter. 

Q.  Now  you  have  had  at  least  five  separate  deliveries  of  money 
in  the  manner  in  which  you  have  described  from  the  Soviet  Gov- 
ernment ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Were  there  more  than  five?     A.  No,  five,  that's  all. 

Q.  And  by  a  different  agent  each  time  ?    A.  Each  time. 

Q.  And  do  you  now  know  whether  or  not  anyone  of  the  five 
are  within  the  United  States  ?  A.  I  decline  to  answer  that. 

Q.  I  haven't  asked  you  where  they  were,  I  have  asked  you 
whether  or  not  you  know  they  are  here ;  do  you  decline  to  answer 
that?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Why  do  you  decline  to  answer  that  ?  A.  I  have  reasons  to 
do  it. 

Q.  What  are  your  reasons  ?  A.  My  reasons  are  I  am  bound  by 
honor  not  to  disclose  their  wherea'bouts  and  who  they  are. 

Q.  I  haven't  asked  you  where  they  are,  I  have  given  you  the 
broad  country?  A.  It  amounts  to  the  same. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  whereabouts  of  any  one  of  the  five?  A. 
Yes,  I  know. 

Q.  You  do  know?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now  do  you  think  that  the  bringing  of  any  one  of  these  sums 
of  money  to  you  in  the  manner  in  which  you  have  described  in- 
volves any  criminal  act?  A.  No,  not  at  all. 

Q.  Arid  you  are  not  in  any  way  refusing  or  declining  to  answer 
by  reason  of  the  fact  that  the  act  would  be  a  criminal  act?  A. 
Not  at  all. 

Q.  Or  a  violation  of  any  of  the  laws  of  our  land  ?    A.  Not  at  all. 

Q.  Or  that  it  would  involve  moral  turpitude?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  ?    A.  Not  at  all. 

Q.  But  you  stand  purely  on  the  ground  that  you  think  it  is  a 
privileged  act  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  did  you  receive  the  last  communication  from  your 
Soviet  government  ?  A.  About  a  week  ago. 

Q.  Was  that  by  a  special  messenger  ?    A.  No,  by  mail. 

Q.  And  that  mail  was  sent  through  some  other  country?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 


72 

Q.  It  was  not  sent  direct?     A.  It  was  not  sent  direct. 

Q.  And  remailed  to  you  by  the  agency  which  is  employed  ?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  is  that  the  same  agency  which  you  employ  in  answering 
your  government  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  every  one  of  the  communications  that  have  gone,  written 
communications  that  have  gone  by  mail  have  gone  to  the  same 
center  and  by  that  center  have  been  forwarded  to  the  Soviet  gov- 
ernment? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  answer  has  been  sent  by  the  Soviet  government 
through  that  center  and  by  that  center  to  you  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  that  is  true  in  reference  to  all  the  communications  that 
have  been  sent  by  mail  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  was  the  last  communication  that  you  received  by  mes- 
senger ?  A.  About  six  weeks  ago. 

Q.  And  that  was  the  money?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  There  has  been  none  of  this  money  entrusted  to  the  mails  as 
you  described?  That  is  all  covered,  as  I  understand  it,  by  mes- 
senger? A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  when  you  get  your  money  in  the  way  you  describe,  do 
you  get  by  the  same  source  and  by  the  same  messenger  other 
written  communications?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  written  directions?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  advised  your  government  that  up  to  now  this 
country  has  through  its  representatives  in  Washington  declined 
to  recognize  the  Soviet  government  ?  A.  Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  And  have  you  advised  them  as  to  that  subject  more  than 
once?  A.  More  than  once. 

Q.  When  last  did  you  tell  them  ?    A.  Two  weeks  ago. 

Q.  And  have  you  had  any  communications  from  your  govern- 
ment in  answer  to  your  information  that  the  government  here  was 
not  recognizing  you  ?  A.  Yes,  I  have. 

Q.  So  that  you  know  that  the  Soviet  government  is  advised  and 
understands  that  up  to  now  this  country  has  not  recognized  you? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  it  has  not  recognized  your  government  or  recognized 
you  as  its  representative?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  I  suppose  all  of  these  communications  form  part  of  your 
records,  that  is,  you  have  not  destroyed  any  of  them  ?  A.  No,  no. 

Q.  And  they  are  all  in  existence  and  under  your  control?  A. 
Yes. 


By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  You  stated  before  that  you  had  destroyed  some  of  your  gov- 
ernment communications?  A.  Some  that  were  unimportant,  I 
have. 

Q.  Were  any  of  the  communications  from  your  government 
unimportant  ?  A.  Well,  perhaps  some. 

Q.  What  were  the  contents  of  those  that  you  destroyed — how 
many  did  you  destroy?  A.  All  the  official  communications  I 
am  keeping  in  my  control,  but  I  am  receiving  of  course  quite  a 
lot  of  letters  of  a  private  character  from  my  friends  in  Russia 
at  the  same  time,  and:  I  have  no  interest  in  keeping  those  letters. 

Q.  Why  ?  A.  Well,  not  to  give  you,  Mr.  Stevenson,  an  oppor- 
tunity to  twist  every  word  which  is  written. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  in  those  letters  which  would  be  subject  to 
being  twisted?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  that  is  why  you  have  destroyed  them  ?  A.  I  don't  want 
to  give  you  an  opportunity  to  twist  every  one  of  them. 

Q.  And  is  that  why  you  have  destroyed  them?  A.  Yes,  that 
is  why. 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  Well,  what  you  mean,  I  take  it,  is  that  the  contents  of  them 
could  be  construed  by  one  person  in  a  certain  way  and  by  another 
person  in  another  way  ?  A.  Not  at  all, —  by  Mr.  Stevenson,  who 
is  a  master  of  misconstruing  everything. 

Q.  Oh,  by  one  particular  person  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  So  you  thought  it  safer  to  get  a  lot  of  them  out  of  the  way  ? 
A.  Yes.  ^ 

The  Attorney-General. —  Safety  first.  You  must  have  ridden 
071  the  Erie  Railroad. 

Q.  Well,  of  the  official  documents  which  in  any  way  gave  you 
instructions  as  to  your  actions  as  representative  of  the  Soviet  gov- 
ernment, none  of  these  have  been  destroyed  ?  A.  N"o,  sir. 

Q.  And  they  are  in  your  control  and  if  you  were  so  inclined 
you  could  produce  every  one  of  them?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  I  think  you  told  me  you  had  not  received  any  money  from 
the  Soviet  government  in  November?  A.  No,  I  did  not  receive 
any. 

Q.  Did  you  receive  any  money  from  any  source  to  be  used  by 
you  in  your  enterprise  in  November  ?  A.  No,  I  did  not. 


74 

Q.  1  show  you  a  check  book  which  has  been  handed  to  me, 
which  purports  to  be  your  check  book  on  The  Public  National 
Bank  of  New  York,  and  ask  you  if  these  items  over  here  are  in 
your  handwriting.  A.  In  my  cashier's  handwriting. 

Q.  Who  is  the  cashier  ?    A.  Mr.  Hubsch. 

Q.  Is  he  present  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  He  is  in  the  city  i     A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  recognize  that  item  as  being  his  handwriting?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  11-1-19  —  from  what  is  that  (    A.  Stockholm. 

Q.  What  is  that  the  name  of,  a  Russian  city?  A.  No,  a 
Swedish  city. 

Q.  And  $4,000?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  does  that  indicate  ?    A.  It  was  sent  to  me. 

Q.  Well,  then,  in  your  statement  to  me  that  you  received  no 
money  from  any  source  in  November,  you  were  mistaken  about 
that  ?  A.  Oh,  what  date  is  that  ?  The  first  of  November  I  did 
receive  that. 

Q.  So  how  did  that  money  come  ?    A.  In  the  form  of  a  draft. 

Q.  And  by  mail  ?    A.  Yes,  by  mail. 

Q.  To  you  personally?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  this  page  here  indicates  that  on  the  first  day  of  Novem- 
ber, 1919,  that  $4,000  was  deposited  to  the  credit  of  your  account 
in  this  Public  National  Bank  of  New  York  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  recall  any  other  items  upon  reflection  that  you 
received  in  November  from  any  source  ?  A.  No.  that  is  the  only 
item  I  received. 

Q.  Well,  whose  handwriting  is  this  in  here,  under  date  of  the 
3d  of  November?  A.  (Witness  examines  check  book.)  (Read- 
ing) :  "  Check  for  Soviet  Russia,  Metropolitan  News  Company." 
Paid  over  by  a  publication. 

Q.  This  is  a  deposit,  isn't  it  ?  A.  Well,  they  sent  us  a  check 
and  we  deposited  the  check  in  the  bank. 

Q.  So  you  did  receive  that  item  ?  A.  Oh,  yes ;  $345,  I  omitted 
that. 

Q.  It  is  only  $265.     A.  Yes,  $265. 

Q.  And  whom  do  you  say  that  came  from?  A.  From  the 
Metropolitan  News  Company. 

Q.  Where  are  they  located  ?  A.  Here  in  New  York ;  they  are 
our  distributing  agents. 

Q.  That  is  money  that  they  received  from  the  sale  of  your  — 
A.   Our  paper. 


75 

Q.  -—jour  Russian  paper,  what  do  you  call  it?  A.  "  Soviet 
Russia." 

Q.  YVhat  is  this  $136.50  mean  there?  A.  Probably  a  check 
number;  i  don't  know. 

Q.  Oh,  no;  it  is  136  blank  50.  A.  Or  a  bill  number;  I  don't 
know. 

Q.  You  cannot  tell?  A.  I  cannot  tell,  but  it  is  the  Metro- 
politan News  Company. 

Q.  Now,  under  the  same  date  there  is  a  check  from  what? 
For  $1,000  —  what  is  that  ?  A.  Dr.  Mislig. 

Q.  Well,  who  is  he  ?    A.  A  friend  of  mine. 

Q.  Does  he  live  here  in  New  York?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  he  giving  you  a  check  for  a  thousand  dollars  for  ? 
A.  It  is  a  personal  loan. 

Q.  That  is,  out  of  this  Soviet  money  that  you  received  from 
your  government  you  loaned  him  a  thousand  dollars?  A.  No, 
not  I ;  he  loans  it  to  me. 

Q.  Oh,  he  is  loaning  this  to  you  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  are  putting  it  in  with  the  Soviet  government 
money?  A.  Yes,  I  put  everything  in  my  bank. 

Q.  Well,  this  money  in  the  bank  all  belongs  to  the  government 
you  represent,  does  it  not  ?  A.  No,  partly  my  personal  money. 

The  Chairman. —  Is  that  a  contribution  or  a  loan  ? 

The  Witness. — A  loan,  and  I  paid  it  back,  as  a  matter  of  fact, 
partly. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  By  check?     A.  By  check,  yes. 

Q.  Well,  will  you  find  me  the  check  in  this  book,  let  me  see 
when  you  did  that  (handing  check  book  to  witness)  ? 

Mr.  Berger. —  Does  Dr.  Mislig  live  up  on  Madison  avenue,  Mr. 
Martens  ? 

The  Witness.— No. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Where  does  the  doctor  live?  A.  I  don't  remember  his  ad- 
dress, somewhere  uptown. 


76 

Q.  You  had  a  friend  who  let  you  have  a  thousand  dollars  and 
you  don't  remember  where  he  lives  ?  A.  1  have  many  friends 
who  would  give  me  tens  of  thousands  of  dollars  if  I  wanted  it. 

Mr.  Berger. —  Who  are  they  ? 

The  Witness. — All  over  America  —  but  I  don't  ask  it.  That 
is  all. 

Q.  There  is  no  other  check  book,  is  there?  A.  Yes,  I  think 
that  is  the  one. 

Q.  On  another  bank  i     A.  No,  on  the  same  bank. 

(Witness  examines  check  book.) 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  You  did  not  pay  back  the  money  before  you 
received  it,  did  you,  Mr.  Martens  ? 

The  Witness. —  Just  a  minute. 

(The  witness  continues  examination  of  the  check  book.) 

The  Witness. — As  far  as  I  remember,  I  paid  the  $500  back. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  When  did  you  do  that  A.  I  think  soon  after  that.  I  don't 
remember  the  dates. 

Q.  You  gave  them  a  check  to  his  order  ?  A.  I  don't  remember 
exactly  how  I  did  it.  I  think  November  6th  it  was. 

Q.  Well,  on  November  6th  you  drew  out  of  the  bank  to  your- 
self $1,000  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  There  is  not  anything  on  the  books  to  show  that  the  l3octor 
got  any  part  of  that,  is  there?  A.  No,  I  don't  think  so  —  yes,  T 
gave  him  $500  back,  but  I  think  in  cash. 

Q.  Well,  now  then,  some  time  in  November  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  say  you  think;  that  always  arouses  my  curiosity  a 
little.  A.  I  paid  him  $500  back,  but  I  don't  remember  the  day 
or  in  what  way  I  paid  him  —  cash  or  check  then,  but  I  paid  him 
$500  back. 

Q.  And  you  cannot  tell  a  transaction  of  that  sort  since  the  6th 
of  November,  where  you  were  returning  $500  of  an  obligation  — 
you  cannot  tell  whether  it  was  cash  or  a  check  or  the  form  of  the 
payment?  A.  Well,  Mr.  Newton,  I  have  many  other  things  to 
do,  so  this  little  point  might  escape  my  memory. 

Q.  You  are  pretty  nearly  as  busy  as  the  Attorney-General,  I 
take  it  ?  A.  Yes. 


77 

Q.  Well,  who  is  this  doctor  ?     A.  He  is  a  doctor. 

Q.  Is  he  a  regular  doctor  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  we  call,  up  in  the  cotintry,  a  "  pill  doctor,"  a  medical 
mau  ?  A.  Yes,  a  medical  man. 

Q.  A  Russian  £     A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  known  him  ?  A.  I  have  known  him 
about  three  years. 

Q.  You  got  acquainted  with  him  after  vou  came  here  to  New 
York?  A.  Ye*. 

Q.  And  visited  him  ?     A.   Yes. 

Q.  You  lived  at  the  same  place  ?     A.  No. 

Q.  Where  was  he  living  when  yon  visited  him  ?     A.  Up  town. 

Q.  Well,  that  is  somewhat  indefinite  to  us.  A.  I  don't  remem- 
ber where  he  lived,  but  I  think  it  was  85tb  street. 

Q.  How  long  since  he  has  visited  you?  A.  The  last  time, 
about  the  end  of  the  last  year. 

Q.  Well  who  made  the  application  for  this  thousand  dollar  loan  ? 
A.  I  myself. 

Q.  How  much  money  did  you  have  on  deposit  in  the  banks 
here  the  day  he  let  you  have  that  money  ?  A.  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  At  least  $19,000,  did  you  not  *     A.  What  * 

Q.  You  had  at  least  $19,000  in  cash  on  deposit  in  the  bank  on 
the  day  he  made  that  loan  to  you  ?  A.  No,  I  don't  think  it  was 
as  much. 

Q,  Well  $15,000?  A.  Where  did  you  get  this  figure  from, 
Mi*.  Newton? 

Q.  Well,  having  learned  something  about  declining  to  answer, 
I  aecept  one  of  your  reasons.  A.  I  don't  understand  your  argu- 
ment, Mr.  Newton. 

The  Chairman. —  Would  you  speak  more  clearly  ? 

Q.  Yes.  I  want  to  ask  you  if,  on  the  day  of  the  borrowing  of 
this  $1,000,  you  did  not  have  at  least,  to  your  credit  in  the  banks 
in  New  York,  $15,000  2  A.  No,  I  did  not  have  it,  otherwise  I 
would  not  borrow  this  money. 

Q.  How  much  would  you  say  was  the  least  you  had  in  the 
banks  on  tbe  day  yon  borrowed  the  $1,000  from  him?  A.  Maybe 
a  couple  of  thousand. 

Q.  What  was  the  necessity  for  borrowing  from  your  friend, 
the  doctor,  $1,000  if  you  had  $2,000?  A.  I  had  to  pay  salaries; 
T  had  to  pay  for  printing  of  paper. 


78 

Q.  Has  there  been  a  day  since  the  receipt  of  that  $20,000  in 
March,  1019,  when  your  bank  balances  here  have  not  been  more 
than  $10,000?  A.  Yes,  on  several  occasions  it  was  more  than 
$10,000. 

Q.  My  question  is  if  you  will  swear  there  is  a  day  since  that 
$20,000  was  deposited  in  March,  1919,  when  your  daily  balance 
in  the  banks  here  has  been  less  than  $10.000?  A.  You  are 
mistaken. 

Q.  "No,  I  am  asking  you  to  swear.  A.  I  never  told  you  that  I 
deposited  $20,000. 

Q.  No.  I  know  you  never  did.  I  have  not  said  you  told  me  so. 
I  am  asking  you  to  swear  to  the  fact.  A.  What  is  that  ? 

Q.  I  am  asking  you  to  swear  to  a  fact.     A.  What  ? 

Q.  Well,  what  do  you  say  was  the  least  daily  balance  of  cash 
that  you  had  in  the  banks  of  New  York  since  March,  1919  ? 
A.  The  least? 

Q.  Yes.    A.  About  $100. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  in  your  pocket  at  the  time  when  your 
bank  account  ran  down  to  $100?  A.  No.  T  had  not,  other- 
wise T  would  have  deposited  it  in  the  bank. 

Q.  Did  you  have  any  in  your  safe  deposit  box  ?  A.  I  had  not, 
otherwise  I  would  haAre  deposited  it  at  the  bank. 

Q.  Ifid  you  get  this  $1,000  from  the  doctor  on  the  day  that 
you  deposited  it  to  your  credit  in  the  People's  National  Bank 
of  New  York?  A.  Yes.  At  the  time  I  had  not  enough  money 
to  pay  my  obligations ;  that  is  the  reason  why  T  borrowed  this 
money. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  know  what  the  bank  book  will  show  as  your 
balance  of  cash  in  the  banks  where  you  carry  an  account,  on  the 
1st  day  of  November,  the  day  of  the  deposit  of  this  $1,000  that 
you  say  you  got  from  the  doctor  ?  A.  No,  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  Will  you  swear  it  was  not  more  than  $5.000?  A.  T  think 
not. 

Q.  You  think  not  ?    A.  T  think  it  was  not  more. 

Q.  That  is  as  strong  as  you  want  to  put  it  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  other  bank  do  you  carry  an  account  in  ?  A.  The 
State  Bank. 

Q.  Do  you  carry  any  account  in  any  other  banks  except  the 
Public  National  Bank  of  New  York  and  the  State  Bank?  A. 
The  Public  National  Bank  of  New  York  and  the  State  Bank. 


79 

Q.  Those  are  the  only  two  you  have  had  any  banking  experi- 
ence with  by  way  of  deposits  ?  A.  The  Guaranty  Trust  Company, 
too. 

Q.  That  was  some  time  ago  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  I  find  a  man  here  by  the  name  of  Adams.  Who  is  he? 
A.  He  is  the  manager  of  my  technical  department. 

Q.  How  much  money  have  you  paid  Adams  in  November? 
A.  I  think  about  $2,000. 

Q.  Does  he  get  $2,000  a  month  ?  A.  No,  he  is  not  getting  so 
much.  It  is  his  expenses. 

Q.  On  the  12th  of  November  did  you  make  a  deposit  of  cash 
in  the  Public  National  Bank  of  New  York  ?  A.  Maybe ;  I  don't 
remember. 

Q.  Was  that  made  by  you  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  it?  Where  did  you  get  this  $1,000 
from  ?  A.  I  had  in  my  hands  some  money. 

Q.  Well,  two  days  before  you  drew  out  $1,000.  Am  I  right 
about  it?  A.  Yes;  that  looks  right  (indicating  in  check  book). 

Q.  Now,  you  told  me,  if  I  understood  you  correctly,  that  you 
thought  that  at  the  time  you  got  this  $1,000  from  the  doctor,  upon 
the  1st  of  November,  that  your  bank  balance  was  down  to  $100. 
Did  I  understand  you  correctly?  A.  No;  sometimes  it  reached 
$100. 

Q.  Well,  how  much  was  it  on  the  day  you  got  the  $1,000  from 
the  doctor  ?  A.  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  Well,  what  is  your  best  recollection?  A.  Maybe  a  couple 
of  thousand. 

Q.  If  you  had  $2,000  in  the  bank  would  you  be  apt  to  go  out 
and  borrow  a  thousand  ?  A.  Yes,  if  I  had  to  pay  more  than  $3,000. 

Q.  Am  I  correct  in  the  conclusion  that  your  bank  balance  in 
this  bank  on  November  1st  was  $2,443.02?  A.  (Examining 
check  book.)  Yes,  probably  it  was. 

Q.  Whose  figures  are  those  that  are  crossed  out,  $18,696.31  ? 
A.  That  means  that  it  was  deposited  —  the  red  ink  —  adjusting 
the  totals  —  it  does  not  mean  that  it  was  actually  in  the  bank. 

Q.  Well,  now,  without  any  apparent  deposit  at  all,  from  then 
to  the  3d  of  November,  your  bank  balance  shows  $3,286.96,  does 
it  not  ?  A.  No,  it  does  not.  It  is  simply  the  sum  of  all  these 
totals.  It  was  the  totals  of  all  checks. 

Q.  Well,  then,  there  is  no  way  of  showing  from  this  book? 
A.  Yes,  the  difference. 

j 


80 

Q.  You  carry  the  total  deposits  on  one  side  aud  the  withdrawals 
on  the  other  side '(  A.  Yes,  on  the  other  side. 

Q.  Then  I  have  got  you  to  say  something  that  you  did  not 
mean,  which  I  did  not  intend  to  do.  I  had  you  tell  me  that 
your  balance  on  November  1st  was  $2,443.02.  A.  No,  it  was  not. 

Q.  Your  balance  011  that  day  was  $13,848.42 1  A.  Minus 
$2,443.02. 

(I  What  is  that  $2,443.02?    A.  Here? 

Q.  Yes,  the  addition  of  those  sums.    A.  Yes. 

Q.  On  November  Oth  1  find  the  withdrawal  by  yourself  person- 
ally of  a  thousand  dollars;  am  I  right  about  that?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  what  you  did  with  that  money  ?  A.  As 
far  as  I  remember,  I  paid  part  of  my  debts  and  part  for  my  own 
personal  expenses. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a  gentleman  in  this  city  by  the  name  of  Dudley 
Field  Malone?  A.  Yes,  I  know  him. 

Q.  Friend  of  yours  ?     A.  Not  a  friend 

Q.  Ever  employ  him  for  anything  (    A.  Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  What  did  you  hire  him  to  do  ?  A.  To  help  me  in  a  com- 
mercial transaction. 

Q.  What  one  (  A.  I  purchased  some  boots  through  his  inter- 
mediary and  I  wanted  to  organize  for  the  shipping  of  goods  info 
Soviet  Russia  from  here. 

Q.  Did  you  get  the  boots  ?    A.  Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  Did  you  get  them  shipped  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  buy  the  boots  from  ?  A.  I  forget  the  namo 
of  the  company. 

Q.  Now,  was  Mr.  Malone  employed  to  assist  you  in  the  pur- 
chase of  the  boots  or  in  using  his  influence  to  get  permission  to 
ship  them  to  Russia  ?  A.  I  used  not  his  influence  but  his  help  to 
arrange  for  shipment  of  goods  for  the  amount  of  nine  million 
dollars  into  Russia. 

Q.  You  made  a  contract  for  the  boots  ?  A.  It  was  not  boots ; 
all  kinds  of  stuff,  I  made  contracts,  yes. 

Q.  How  many  different  companies  ?    A.  Two  or  three. 

Q.  And  boots  was  one  item  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  other  article  of  commerce?  A.  Meats  and  canned 
goods. 

Q.  The  total  amount  you  say  was  nine  million  (  A.  Xine  and 
a  half  million  dollars. 

Q.  Did  you  pay  anything  on  it  ?  A.  No ;  to  be  paid  in  Petro- 
grad. 


81 

Q.  That  is,  you  put  the  burden  on  the  companies  from  which 
you  contracted  to  make  the  delivery  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  How  was  Malone  going  to  help  you?  A.  Malone  was  my 
counsel. 

Q.  Your  counsel  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  He  was  one  of  the  lawyers  that  you  did  not  mention  this 
morning  when  I  asked  you?  A.  It  was  only  for  this  particular 
thing. 

Q.  What  did  you  pay  him  for  what  he  did  ?  A.  One  thousand 
dollars. 

Q.  That  was  by  check  on  the  12th  of  September,  this  last  Sep- 
tember, 1919  ?  A.  I  think  it  was. 

Q.  I  show  you  the  item.    A.  Yes,  it  was. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  know  as  a  fact  that  Mr.  Malone  has  been  speak- 
ing,—  he  is  an  orator,  isn't  he  ?  A.  Yes,  I  know. 

Q.  Has  been  speaking  for  the  recognition  of  Soviet  Russia? 
A.  Yes,  he  has. 

Q.  Wasn't  this  thousand  dollars  paid  to  him  for  that  service  ? 
A.  No,  Mr.  Newton.  I  would  prefer  Mr.  Malone  to  answer  this 
himself,  but  anyhow  it  was  not  expressly  mentioned. 

Q.  Well,  did  he  make  speeches  ?    A.  Not  in  my  behalf. 

Q.  In  the  interest  of  the  recognition  of  Soviet  Russia  before 
he  got  this  thousand  ?  A.  Yes,  on  many  occasions  he  made  them. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  made  any  since  he  got  that?  A.  I  don't  re- 
member any. 

Q.  The  last  time  I  think  you  and  I  had  a  little  visit  was  the 
way  the  search  warrant  was  issued  and  the  authorities  or  some- 
body took  possession  of  some  of  the  effects  of  your  office  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir, 

Q.  I  have  forgotten  when  that  was.    A.  Twelfth  of  June. 

Q.  Following  that,  what  I  think  you  termed  a  raid.?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  made  some  public  addresses  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  In  which  you  criticized  the  action  of  the  authorities  and 
the  Committee  in  that  transaction  ?  A.  I  did  not  criticize ;  I 
simply  stated  publicly  what  my  duties  are  here  and  what  I  am 
doing  here. 

Q.  Whether  it  be  criticism  or  not.  at  that  time  and  on  the 
same  platform  Mr.  Malone  spoke  with  you  in  relation  to  the 
subject,  didn't  he  ?  A.  No,  I  don't  think  he  spoke  with  me, 

Q.  Are  you  sure  about  it  ?    A.  I  am  almost  sure  about  it. 

Q.  Has  he  ever  spoken  from  the  same  platform  with  you  or 
not  of  these  problems  ?  A.  No,  I  never  spoke  with  him. 


82 

Q.  And  it'  I  have  received  such  information  of  that,  it  is  not 
accurate  ?  A.  No,  it  is  not  accurate. 

By  Mr.  Stevenson : 

Q.  Do  you  remember  a  certain  meeting  in  Madison  Square 
(J;irden  in  June?  A.  After  the  raid,  yes. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Malone  speak  at  that  time  ?    A.  No. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  I  have  the  record. 

33y  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Mr.  Malone  has  organized  a 
corporation  for  the  purpose  of  dealing  with  Soviet  Russia?  A. 
No,  not  as  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  You  have  had  no  communication  with  him  on  any  such 
subject  as  that  ?  A.  I  discussed  it  with  him  on  several  occasions, 
the  shipment  of  goods  to  Russia,  and  his  ability  to  organize  some- 
thing of  this  sort,  but  that's  all. 

Q.  Did  you  know  he  had  made  an  effort  or  had  actually  organ- 
ized such  company  or  corporation  ?  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  you  have  a  meeting  on  the  same  subject  at  the  Waldorf- 
Astoria?  A.  With  whom? 

Q.  A  meeting  in  which  you  were  present  at  any  rate  ?  A.  T 
was  on  many  occasions  at  the  Waldorf-Astoria. 

Q.  On  this  subject  of  organizing  a  company  to  deal  with  Soviet 
Russia?  A.  No,  I  was  not  present. 

Q.  Never  been  present  at  any  meeting  in  which  that  subject 
was  discussed  ?  A.  In  the  Waldorf-Astoria,  never  been  present. 

Q.  If  there  has  been  any  meeting  there  to  discuss  such  a  sub- 
ject, you  know  nothing  about  it?  A.  No. 

Q.  Are  Mr.  Adams'  duties  confined  to  your  New  York  office? 
A.  To  the  technical  department  of  my  bureau. 

Q.  Are  all  of  the  things  he  does  done  here  in  this  city,  or  does 
he  go  about  in  other  places  ?  A.  No,  he  is  staying  here. 

Q.  Have  you  any  branches  of  your  office?     A.  In  Detroit. 

Q.  Who  is  in  charge  of  the  Detroit  office?     A.  Dr.  Rovin. 

Q.  What  is  his  first  name?    A.  I  don't  remember. 

Q.  Is  he  a  Russian  ?    A.  Of  Russian  extraction. 

Q.  Is  he  a  citizen  ?    A.  Yes,  he  is  a  citizen. 

Q.  Naturalized  citizen?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where  did  you  get  acquainted  with  him  ?    A.  In  Detroit. 


83 

Q.  Has  that  been  his  home  for  some  time  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  he  a  medical  man  ?    A.  Yes,  he  is  a  bacteriologist. 

Q.  How  long  have  you  had  a  branch  office  in  Detroit  ?  A. 
About  four  or  five  months. 

Q.  How  many  employes  in  that  office  ?  A.  Only  one,  I  think. 
It  is  quite  a  small  office. 

Q.  Does  the  doctor  get  a  salary ?     A.  No,  he  does  not. 

Q.  Are  the  office  expenses  paid  from  your  office  here  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  the  other  employes,  are  the  employes  whoever  they  are, 
outside  of  the  doctor  paid  from  your  office  here?  A.  Paid  from 
my  office  here. 

Q.  Paid  direct  by  you  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  By  check?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  is  the  necessity  for  your  office  in  Detroit  ?  A.  My 
idea  was  to  interest  the  Detroit  manufacturers  in  a  trade  with 
Soviet  Russia.  I  intended  to  place  an  order  for  fifty  million  dol- 
lars with  Detroit  manufacturers. 

The  Chairman. — What  kind. 

The  Witness. —  For  motor  cars  and  tractors. 

Q.  You  haven't  placed  any  such  contract?  A.  Yes,  I  have 
placed  some  for  a  small  amount. 

Q.  With  whom  ?  A.  I  don't  remember  the  name  of  the  firms, 
but  I  negotiated  with  the  Ford  Motor  Company  and  with  several 
others. 

Q.  You  have  negotiated  but  you  haven't  actually  bought  any- 
thing, have  you  ?  A.  Xo. 

Q.  And  you  haven't  actually  bought  a  dollar's  worth  of  any 
product  at  all?  A.  Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  Tell  me  what  you  have  actually  bought  and  paid  for?  A. 
I  bought  for  about  ten  and  a  half  thousand  dollars  rubber  boots. 

Q.  Where  are  they  ?    A.  Stored  here  in  New  York. 

Q.  Paid  for?     A.  Paid  for. 

Q.  Whom  did  you  buy  those  from  ?  A.  I  don't  remember  the 
name  of  the  firm,  but  from  the  checks  you  will  find  out,  Mr. 
Newton. 

Q.  You  probably  got  a  receipt  in  your  papers?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  Will  you  bring  me  that  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  did  you  make  the  purchase;  I  suppose  the  receipts 
will  show,  probably?  A.  Yes,  it  will  show. 


84 

Q.  But  you  have  known  all  the  time  that  under  present  con- 
ditions  it  was  impossible  for  you  to  «hij>  or  deliver  to  Kus-ia  any 
single  articled  A.  At  the  time  1  did  make  this  purchase  f  had 
hoped  to  send  a  ship. 

Q.  Yes,  you  had  hoped  hut  you  have  known  all  the  time  that 
you  could  not  actually  make  a  delivery,  didn't  you.  A.  Cer- 
tainly. Thai  is  the  reason  I  could  not  huy  for  larger  amounts. 

Q.  Now,  you  say  you  opened  your  Detroit  office  for  the  pur- 
pose of  interesting  the  manufacturers  np  there  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  there  any  purpose  in  putting  at  the  head  of  it  a  doctor  ? 
A.  No,  but  he  is  a  very  capable  man. 

Q.  He  is  a  lecturer,  isn't  he  ?     A.  Yes,  he  lectures  sometimes. 

Q.  Weren't  you  more  interested  in  having  a  lecturer  who 
would  expound  your  county's  rights  than  you  were  in  making 
prehases  of  commodities  that  were  manufactured  in  Detroit  ?  A. 
I  was  not  interested  in  his  being  a  lecturer,  but  I  was  interested 
in  his  being  first  of  all  a  capable  man  who  will  handle  this  job 
thoroughly,  and  so  he  did. 

Q.  He  had  no  special  influence  with  any  shipping  interests, 
did  he?  A.  No,  but  he  had  quite  an  interest  in  Detroit,  people  In 
Detroit  knew  him. 

Q.  Didn't  you  think  that  the  employment  of  this  doctor  there 
would  give  a  little  standing  in  the  City  of  Detroit  to  the  Soviet 
Government  ?  A.  Just  to  the  contrary,  Mr.  Newton. 

Q.  What?  A.  Just  to  the  contrary.  He  made  quite  a  good 
show  in  Detroit. 

Q.  I  am  afraid  you  don't  understand  me ;  wasn't  your  purpose 
in  selecting  the  doctor  to  take  charge  of  the  Detroit  office  to 
interest  the  people  and  get  some  influence  there  favorable  to  your 
Soviet  Government  ?  A.  Well,  it  is  my  intention  always  to 
interest  as  many  people  as  possible. 

Q.  I  have  only  made  it  now  as  far  as  the  doctor  is  concerned 
in  Detroit :  that  was  your  purpose,  wasn't  it  ?  A.  Oh.  yes ;  to 
a  certain  extent  it  was. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  borrow  any  money  from  Dr.  Mislig  but  once  ? 
A.  Twice;  once  $500  and  another  time  a  thousand  dollars. 

Q.  When  did  you  borrow  the  $500  ?  A.  I  could  not  remember 
the  exact  date:  maybe  a  month  or  two  ago. 

Q.  Ever  paid  him  anything  excepting  the  $500.  A.  Xo.  not 
yet,  it  is  still  due. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  give  him  a  check  for  any  sum  ?  A.  Yes,  I 
think  as  far  as  I  remember,  I  think  I  gave  him  a  check  for  $500. 


Q.  You  never  owed  him  up  to  this  1st  of  November  any 
sum  beyond  $500,  did  you '(  A.  Well,  Mr.  Newton,  I  really  don't 
remember  but  I  owe  him  some  money.  The  dates  I  don't  remem- 
ber, from  these  check  books  you  will  see  exactly  how  the  matter 
stands. 

Q.  Would  it  be  possible  that  you  had  borrowed  money  from 
the  doctor  and  had  forgotten  it  *  A.  No,  not  at  all. 

Q.  Would  it  l>e  possible  that  you  could  be  mistaken  several 
hundred  dollars  in  the  amount  (  A.  No,  it  could  not  be.  He  will 
remind  me. 

Q.  He  will  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  I  am  going  to  in  a  minute  —  your  recollection  as  you  state 
it  here  now  is  that  before  the  1st  of  November  the  only  money 
transaction  you  had  with  the  doctor  was  the  borrowing  of  $500? 
A.  No,  borrowing  from  him  a  thousand  dollars  and  again  five 
hundred  dollars.  I  paid  him  back  five  hundred  dollars? 

A£r.  Stevenson. —  What  is  this  doctor's -first  name? 
The  Witness. —  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Now,  there  is  your  thousand  dollars  on  the  3d  of  November, 
isn't  there?  A.  Y"es. 

Q.  'So  you  were  mistaken  when  you  thought  that  it  was  five 
hundred  ?  A.  No,  you  were  mistaken.  I  told  you  that  I  paid 
him  back  $500. 

Q.  I  was  not  talking  about  that,  I  was  asking  how  much  you 
received  from  him.  You  told  me  a  thousand  dollars  at  one  time 
and  five  hundred  at  another,  and  those  were  the  only  two  items 
you  had  ever  borrowed  from  him.  Now,  am  I  right  or  wrong 
about  that?  A.  I  owe  him  $1,500  altogether.  That  I  remember 
exactly.  I  paid  him  back  — 

Q.  That  don't  quite  answer  my  inquiry.  Yon  had  $1,500 
from  him  all  told  and  you  have  paid  him  $500.  A.  I  still  owe 
him  $1,500.  When  I  took  it  and  in  what  amounts  I  don't  remem- 
ber. 

Q.  Now,  let's  see  if  we  can  clear  our  recollection  -  A.  You 
can  see  it  from  the  check  }>ook. 

Q.  I  understand  that  but  I  want  to  get  your  recollection;  I 
want  to  see  if  you  are  as  good  a  man  as  I  think  you  are;  now 
you  got  a  thousand  dollars  from  him  on  the  3d  of  November? 
*A.  Yes. 


86 

Q.  Was  that  the  last  money  you  borrowed  from  him  '.  A.  Last 
money  I  borrowed  from  him. 

Q.  And  you  have  paid  him  in  some  form  or  another  $500 
since  that  time?  A.  I  think  before  that  time. 

Q.  You  think  before  that  time?     A.  I  think  before  that  time. 

Q.  So  when  you  looked  through  these  check  books  and  picked 
out  a  thousand  dollars  that  came  to  you  personally—  A.  It  was 
a  mistake. 

Q.  You  think  you  are  mistaken  about  that  ?  A.  I  think  I  am 
mistaken. 

Q.  Xow,  how  much  money  had  you  borrowed  of  the  doctor 
l>efore  this  3d  day  of  Xovember,  1JMJ)  (  A.  I  think  $1,500. 

Q.  All  told,  $'l,500<  before?     A.   Before. 

Q.  You  keej)  raising  the  ante  all  the  time.  A.  One  second. 
I  owe  him,  as  I  told  you  on  several  occasions  $1,500.  I  paid  him 
I  think  a  thousand  dollars  back  from  a  previous  loan  I  made 
from  him  so  it  means  I  paid  altogether  about  $2,500,  paid  him 
back  $1,000,  so  I  still  owe  him  $1,500. 

Q.  When  did  you  pay  the  thousand  dollars  ?  A.  I  don't  remem- 
ber. 

Q.  Xo  book  account  of  it?     A.  Yes,  it  must  be  here. 

Q.  Xo  record  of  it  ?     A.  Yes,  it  must  be  in  the  check  book. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Well,  have  you  any  other  record  or  any  accounting  of  the 
financial  transaction  between  you  and  the  doctor  except  as  shown 
by  the  check  books  ?  A.  Xothing,  only  these  checks. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  doctor  has  any  record  or  not  other 
than  this  ?  A.  I  don't  know  what  kind  of  records  he  has. 

Q.  How  did  he  let  you  have  this  money,  by  checks  or  cash  ?  A. 
Checks,  I  think. 

Q.  Where  did  you  cash  it  ?    A.  In  my  bank. 

Q.  Xow  I  call  your  attention  to  an  item  in  your  check  book 
of  September  25,  1919,  M.  D.  Mislig,  $1,000?  'A.  Yes,  from  a 
loan  of  $1,500. 

Q.  And  now  it  comes  to  memory  ?  A.  Xow  it  comes  to 
my  memory;  I  had  a  loan  from  him  of  $1,500.  Subsequently  I 
paid  him  $1,000  back,  and  on  a  second  occasion  I  asked  him  again 
to  give  me  $1,000,  so  I  owed  him  $1,500. 

Q.  Do  these  initials  refresh  your  recollection  as  to  his  name  ? 
A.  I  think 


8Y 

Q.  M.  D.  ?    A.  M.  D.  is  a  medical  doctor. 

Q.  The  M.  D.  is  not  meant  for  his  actual  initials  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  Now  you  stated  to  me  that  there  were  hundreds  of  people 
who  were  willing  to  make  loans  to  you  of  any  sums  into  thou- 
sands of  dollars ;  you  volunteered  that  statement,  didn't  you  ?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  I  did. 

Q.  And  you  meant  it  ?    A.  I  meant  it,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  actually  borrowed  other  sums  —  A.  No,  I  did 
not. 

Q.  Whom  have  you  in  mind  now  who  has  offered  to  lend  you 
sums  of  money  running  into  hundreds  or  thousands  of  dollars  ? 
A.  I  mean  generally,  that  I  have  so  many  friends  here  who  write 
me  very  nice  letters  and  promise  me  every  kind  of  assistance;  I 
don't  know  whether  or  not  they  mean  financial  assistance,  but 
nobody  offered  me  any  money  and  I  did  not  ask  it  because  I  was 
well  provided  with  money. 

Q.  Have  you  any  objection  to  giving  the  Committee  here  the 
name  of  some  of  these  people  who  made  these  generous  offers  ?  A. 
Nobody  made  me  offers  of  money. 

Q.  No,  but  they  wrote  you  letters  which  made  you  believe  that 
they  were  willing  to  back  you  financially  ?  A.  Well,  I  have  thou- 
sands of  letters  of  this  kind,  Mr.  Newton. 

Q.  Well,  I  don't  want  all  of  them,  but  the  names  of  a  few  who 
have  been  that  generous  with  you?  A.  After  this  so-called  raid 
of  the  12th  of  June,  you  had  many  of  my  letters,  Mr.  Newton, 
and  from  those  letters  you  could  see  how  the  sentiment  is.  I  did 
not  mention  that  they  offered  me  specifically  money,  but  I  am 
sure  if  I  needed  money  I  will  get  money. 

Q.  Well,  I  am  afraid  that  these  young  men  sitting  down  here 
will  quote  you  as  having  said  that  there  were  large  numbers  of 
people  who  will  lend  you  money  running  into  the  thousands  of 
dollars.  A.  I  did  not  say  so,  and  I  said,  I  am  sure  that  if  I 
needed  money  I  can  get  thousands  of  people  to  help  me,  but  I 
don't  need  any  money. 

Q.  Well,  then,  if  you  said  anything  or  volunteered  any  informa- 
tion that  there  were  a  large  number  of  people  who  had  offered 
or  suggested  that  they  were  ready  to  finance  your  proposition  to 
the  extent  of  hundreds  or  thousands  of  dollars,  you  did  not  mean 
it  ?  A.  No,  no,  no,  I  did  not  say  so,  Mr.  Newton.  I  repeat  again, 
as  I  did  on  previous  occasions,  that  nobody  offered  me  money  or 
financial  assistance,  but  many  people  expressed  sympathy  to  a 
great  extent. 


88 

Q.  Well,  that  sympathy  \vas  expressed  toward  Russia  to  you? 
A.  Certainly  not  to  me  personally. 

Q.  And  you  did  not  mean  to  be  understood  in  any  way  in  your 
answer  to  me,  or  your  statement  made  to  me,  that  there  was  any 
particular  person  who  in  any  way  offered  to  put  up  a  dollar,  only 
this  one  doctor,  that  you  borrowed  $2,500  from  (  A.  Yea. 

Q.  So  if  you  did  say  any  such  thing  you  did  not  quite  mean  it? 
A.  Xo,  I  did  not  say  it. 

Q.  Well,  you  say  now,  if  you  did  —  my  recollection  is  a  little 
different  from  yours,  though  not  much  —  you  did  not  mean  to  be 
understood  that  there  are  any  such  people  who  actually  suggested 
that  they  were  ready  with  their  money  to  help  you  with  monev  >. 
A.  Xo,  I  did  not  say  it. 

Q.  Well,  I  say  if  you  did  say  it  you  did  not  understand  it  in 
that  way  ?  A.  Yes. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Mr.  Witness,  do  you  recall  a  Mr. 
Sanderson  as  a  contributor  towards  your  cause  ? 

The  Witness. —  Xo,  I  do  not. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Do  you  know  whether  there  might 
be  such  a  person  among-  those  who  contributed  money  for  the  pur- 
pose of  your  wrork  ? 

The  Witness. —  Mr.  Sanderson,  you  say  (  No,  I  don't  recall 
him. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  You  don't  recall  the  name? 
The  Witness. —  Xo. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Is  it  possible  that  a  man  by  the 
name  of  Sanderson  could  have  contributed  in  any  way  without 
you  knowing  it  ? 

The  Witness. —  \  don't  think  it  is  possible. 

Q.  You  know  the  names  of  all  who  have  given  you  anything  at 
all  toward  your  work  '(  A.  Certainly,  yes. 

Q.  Have  you  offered  To  <>-ive  the  Attorney-General  a  list  of  those 
who  have  helped  you  in  your  work  '.  A.  Xobody  helped  me  finan- 
cially. 

Q.   Xobody  helped  you  financially '.     A.    Xobody. 

Q.  Did  you  ever  receive  any  money  from  any  source  whatever? 
A.  Except  what  my  check  book  shows. 


Q.  Weil,  your  check  book  shows  that  you  deposited  money  from 
time  to  time.  A.  It  shows  also  if  I  get  money  from  other  sources, 
it  sjiows  clearly  wherefrom  I  am  getting  it. 

Q.  But  youi'  check  book  shows  that  at  certain  times  you 
deposited  certain  ?ums  of  money,  doesn't  it  1  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Nmv  that  money  came  from  your  government  %    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  only  from  your  government  I     A.   Yes. 

Q.  It  never  came  from  anybody  here  in  the  United  States  \ 
A.  Xo,  never. 

Q.  How  did  yon  receive  your  money,  did  you  receive  it  by 
remittance  or  by  cash  ^  A.  In  cash. 

Q.   From  your  home  government  t    A.   Yes. 

The  Chairman. —  That  appears. 

By  Air.  Stevenson: 

Q.  Mr.  Al  artens,  you  were  asked  by  -the  Attorney -General 
whether  you  had  issued  any  passports  to  anybody;  what  was  your 
reply  t  A.  I  never  issued  passports. 

Q.  Well,  instead  of  issuing  passports,  has  it  been  your  custom 
to  give  letters  to  persons  wanting  to  enter  Soviet  Russia  1  A.  Well, 
sometimes,  occasionally  I  have  given  letters. 

Q.  You  have  given  letters  to  facilitate  certain  persons  leaving 
this  country  to  enter  Soviet  Russia,  have  you  not  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  many  such  letters  have  you  issued  I  A.  Maybe  half  a 
dozen. 

Q.  Xot  more  I    A.  Xo,  not  more. 

Q.  There  is  to  be  a  meeting  of  the  Third  International  shortly 
in  Moscow,  is  there  not  1  A.  Xot  as  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  of  that 9.     A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well,  haven't  you  as  a  matter  of  fact,  given  letters  of  intro- 
duction to  such  persons  leaving  this  country  as  delegates  to  the 
Third  International  ?  A.  I  never  have. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  of  that  ?     A.  Absolutely. 

Q.  Who  is  Comrade  Minna  J.  Dunn?  A.  Minna  J.  Dunn? 
Well,  as  far  as  I  remember,  I  sep  a  photographic  copy  of  a  letter 
I  issued  to  a  woman  by  the  name  of  Dunn  —  sometimes  people 
come  to  us  telling  me  they  are  going  to  Soviet  Russia,  showing 
me  their  passports,  and  I  am  giving  them  a  letter  in  place  of  a  vise 
of  the  passport ;  so  on  several  occasions,  I  think  maybe  five  or  six 
times,  I  did  it. 


90 

Q.  You  would  only  give  it  iii  sperinl  instances?  A.  No,  to 
anybody  \vJio  is  going  to  Soviet  Russia. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  give  such  a  letter  to  Mr.  John  Reed  when  he 
left  here?  A.  No,  1  did  not. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  of  that ?    A.  Absolutely  sure. 

Q.  Did  he  ever  ask  you  for  one.  A.  No,  he  never  asked  for 
that. 

Q.   Well,  you  are  perfectly  sure  ?    A.  Yes,  perfectly  sure. 

Q.  You  have  not  been  informed  that  there  is  to  be  a  meeting  of 
the  Third  International  in  Moscow  f.  A.  No,  I  think  you  are  mis- 
taken. I  did  not  know  anything  about  it.  There  was  a  meeting 
in  March  — 

Q.   Yes,  but  a  convention  --  A.  1  don't  know  anything  about  it. 

Q.  You  have  not  been  informed  by  your  home  government  to 
that  effect?  A.  No. 

Q.  Well,  how  many  agents  have  you  got  that  you  employ  for 
carrying  on  your  correspondence  with  other  countries?  A.  Well, 
you  may  ask  differently,  how  many  agents  the  Soviet  Russian  Gov- 
ernment has  —  they  have  a  number.  1  suppose  a  big  number. 

Q.  Well,  how  many  are  attached  to  your  office?  A.  Well, 
nobody. 

Q.  Isn't  it  a-  fact  you  issue  credentials  to  your  agents  ?    A.  Xo. 

Q.  You  have  never  issued  any  credentials  to  your  agents  ?  A. 
What  kind  ?  I  issued  credentials  to  some  people  whom  I  sent  to 
Detroit,  or  other  places. 

Q.  But  those  you  are  sending  outside  of  the  country  ?  A.  Only 
in  the  form  of  letters  telling  who  they  are  and  what  places  they 
are  going  to. 

Q.  No  other  form?     A.  No. 

Q.  Just  simply  a  letter  as  identifying  the  person  as  being  your 
agent?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well,  how  many  such  letters  have  you  issued  ?  A.  Well,  I 
don't  remember,  three  or  four  or  five,  I  do  not  remember. 

Q.  Only  three  or  fo.ur  or  five  persons  that  are  attached  to  your 
office?  A.  They  are  not  attached  to  my  office,  Mr.  Stevenson; 
nobody  is  attached  to  my  office. 

By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  What  is  the  right  name  of  this  Minna  J.  Dunn?  A.  I 
don't  know. 

Q.  You  know  her?  A.  I  recollect  giving  her  a  vise  and  her 
name  I  first  saw  on  her  passport  when  she  showed  it  to  me. 


91 

Q.  Do  you  know  her  by  any  other  name?    A.  No. 
Q.  Do  you  know  any  of  her  friends  ?    A.  No. 
Q.  Who  is  Comrade  Strom?     A.  Where  is  he? 
Q.  At  Stockholm.     A.  A  representative  of  the  Soviet  govern- 
ment in  Stockholm. 

By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  So  anybody  wishing  to  enter  Russia,  you  give  a  letter  of 
introduction  to  Comrade  Strom  ?  That  is  the  idea  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  if  you  want  to  facilitate  a  person's  passage  you  recom- 
mend him  or  her  to  Comrade  iStrom  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  in  this  case  of  Minna  Dunn,  you  did  that,  didn't  you  ? 
A.  As  far  as  I  remember,  I  did. 

Q.  Well,  do  these  agents  to  whom  you  have  issued  these  letters 
come  into  communication  with  the  Soviet  government?  A.  No. 
First  of  all,  this  Miss  Dunn  was  not  my  agent.  I  deny  that 
absolutely. 

Q.  I  did  not  say  that.  I  refer  to  these  letters  you  describe  as 
having  been  given  to  your  agents,  do  they  carry  your  communi- 
cations to  the  Soviet  government  ?  A.  Well,  it  is  the  same  ques- 
tion about  my  communications  with  Russia ;  I  decline  to  answer. 

By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  On  what  ground?    A.  On  the  same  ground. 

Q.  I  wish  you  would  state  it  again.  A.  I  consider  my  com- 
munications with  the  Soviet  government  as  privileged,  and  on  this 
ground  I  decline  to  give  any  information  about  my  messages  or 
communications. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  copies  of  your  official  communications  with  the 
Soviet  government?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  the  originals  of  your  communications  from 
the  Soviet  government  ?  A.  Yes,  I  do. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  them  in  your  office  ?    A.  No,  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  do  not  keep  them  in  your  office?    A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  them  in  your  home  ?    A.  No,  I  do  not. 

Q.  Where  do  you  keep  them  ?    A.  In  a  private  place. 

Q.  Where  is  that  private  place.     A.  I  cannot  disclose  it. 

Mr.  Berger. —  Why? 

The  Witness. —  On  the  same  grounds. 

Mr.  Berger. —  State  the  grounds  specifically  on  the  record. 


92 

The  Witness. —  I  regard  my  communications  with  Russia  as 
privileged  and  I  decline  to  answer  everything  concerning  those 
communications  and  those  documents. 

By  Mr.  Stevenson : 

Q.  Well  now,  in  drawing  up  the  organization  of  your  bureau, 
you  had  a  paragraph  which  stated  that  secret  documents  should 
be  delivered  from  hand  to  hand.  What  did  that  refer  to?  A. 
Well,  we  have  a  very  beautiful  organization  in  our  office;  so  we 
had  in  mind  some  correspondence  with  the  State  Department  that 
some  people  should  not  see ;  and  we  had  in  our  constitution  a  para- 
graph telling  how  to  handle  these  kind  of  documents  so  that  nobody 
outside  of  the  staff  would  see  thein,  with  the  exception  of  people 
who  were  handling  this  money. 

Q.  Well  then,  you  had  no  secret  documents  '.    A.    No,  not  at  all. 

Q.  But  at  the  same  time,  these  official  documents,  you  do  not 
even  bring  to  your  office,  do  you?  A.  Certainly  not. 

Q.  Well  then,  they  are  secret  documents,  are  they  not  ?  A.  Well, 
I  suppose  they  are  secret  documents. 

Q.  Is  there  anything  in  any  of  those  documents  that  you  are 
afraid  might  be  distorted  ?  A.  I  am  not  afraid  a  bit,  Mr.  Steven- 
son ;  but  I  would  regard  it  as  an  insult  to  my  government  and 
myself  if  I  would  show  you  these  documents,  and  without  instruc- 
tions from  my  government  I  would  not  show  them. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  any  of  those  documents  on  your  person?  A. 
No,  I  do  not. 

Q.  When  you  were  last  examined  you  stated  that  you  kept 
those  documents  at  your  home,  did  you  not  ?  Did  you  change 
'them  to  some  other  place  because  you  had  told  us  you  had  kept 
them  at  your  home?  A.  Yes,  I  did,  sir. 

Q.  So  that  you  have  changed  the  place  of  keeping  those  docu- 
ments since  you  were  previously  examined,  is  that  correct  ?  A.  I 
had  these  documents  for  a  certain  time  on  my  own  person,  and 
then  I  filed  them  for  safekeeping. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  them  in  a  safe  deposit  box  in  the  Equitable 
Trust  Company  ?  A.  No,  I  do  not. 

Q.  Did  you  take  your  money  out  of  your  safe  deposit  box  in 
the  Equitable  Trust  Company  subsequent  to  the  date  of  your 
examination  here?  A.  No,  before  that. 

Q.  Did  you  not  tell  us  at  that  time  that  you  had  moneys  that 
were  not  deposited  in  the  bank,  that  you  had  in  your  safe  deposit 
box?  A.  I  had  some  Liberty  bonds,  not  cash  money. 


93 

Q,  Well,  have  you  taken  those  from  the  bank!     A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  do  not  keep  them  in  the  safe  deposit  box  any  more  ? 
A.  No,  I  keep  some. 

Q.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  you  have  not  been  able  to  enter  into 
any  substantial  commercial  transactions,  have  you,  owing  to  the 
conditions  of  transportation  here?  A.  Oh,  yes;  I  entered  into 
quite  substantial  commercial  relations  with  people,  and  quite  big 
people,  here  in  America. 

Q.  Well,  have  they  actually  signed  contracts  with  you?  A. 
Some  of  them  have  actually  signed  contracts. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  have  actually  signed  contracts?  A.  I 
think  about  a  dozen  of  them,  to  the  amount  of  twenty  million 
dollars. 

Q.  Would  you  give  us  the  names  of  those  firms?  A.  If  you 
wish,  I  can  give  you,  tomorrow,  a  full  list. 

Q.  All  right,  I  wish  you  would,  please.  As  a  matter  of  fact, 
one  of  your  chief  functions  here  is  to  seek  the  recognition  of  the 
Soviet  government,  is  it  not  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  it  is  part  of  your  office  business  to  carry  on  propaganda 
looking  to  the  recognition  of  the  government,  is  it  not  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  is  that  what  the  major  portion  of  your  force  is  engaged 
in  doing  at  the  present  time?  A.  No,  not  the  major  portion;  I 
should  say  about  25  per  cent  of  the  people  are  engaged  in  this 
kind  of  work. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  not  tell  me  previously  that  about  25  per  cent 
of  your  work  was  propaganda  looking  toward  the  recognition  of 
the  Soviet  government  ?  A.  Well,  what  do  you  call  "propaganda"  ? 
I  mean  just  now  the  publicity  work  of  our  bureau  engaged  about 
25  per  cent — publicity  work — which  consists  of  publication  of  our 
papers  under  the  name  of  "  Soviet  Russia  "  and  the  matter  of 
attending  to  statements  of  the  press,  and  so  forth. 

Q.  Well,  is  not  the  purpose  of  the  "Soviet  Russia"  to  impress 
upon  the  American  people  that  the  Soviet  form  of  government  is 
a  satisfactory  and  excellent  form  of  government.  A.  Yes,  it  is. 

Q.  And  do  not  a  large  number  of  representatives  or  men 
in  your  office  lecture  on  the  lecture  platforms  to  that  effect  ?  A. 
Xot  quite  to  that  effect.  The  aims  of  the  publications  are,  first 
of  all,  not  propaganda  of  the  Soviet  form  of  government,  but  the 
spreading  of  the  truth  about  Russia,  to  the  counteraction  of  mis- 
representations and  false  reports  about  Russian  conditions. 


94 

Q.  You  yourself  have  lectured,  have  you  not  on  the  Russian 
conditions?  A.  Oh,  yes,  I  did. 

Q.  You  were  going  to  speak,  were  you  not,  at  a  meeting  of  the 
Communist  party  on  Monday,  the  10th  I  A.  No. 

Q.  Well,  have  you  accepted?    A.  Monday,  the  10th? 

Q.  Of  November?    A.  Yes,  I  had  accepted. 

Q.  And  were  you  going  to  describe  the  conditions  of  Soviet 
Russia  at  that  meeting?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  your  purpose  was  to  enlist  the  interest  of  the  audience 
in  Soviet  Russia,  was  it  not?  A.  Simply  of  the  present  regime 
in  Russia. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  That  is  all. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Mr.  Chairman,  I  move  that  we  ad- 
journ until  10:30  tomorrow  morning. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Committee  stands  adjourned  until  10:30 
tomorrow  morning. 

(Whereupon  at  4:35  P.  M.  on  Tuesday,  November  25th  1919, 
an  adjournment  was  taken  until  10 :30  A.  M.,  Wednesday,  Novem- 
ber 26th,  1919.) 


95 


MEETING  OF  JOINT  LEGISLATIVE  COMMITTEE  OF  THE 

STATE  OF  NEW  YORK  TO  INVESTIGATE 

SEDITIOUS  ACTIVITIES 


CITY  HALL,  CITY  OF  NEW  YORK, 

WEDNESDAY,  Nov.  26,  1919,  10:30  A.  M. 
Present: 

Senator  Walters, 

Senator  Mullan, 

Assemblyman  Martin  (Vice-Chairman), 

Assemblyman  Pellet, 

Assemblyman  Jenks, 

Assemblyman  McElligott, 

Senator  Boylan, 

Assemblyman  Burr. 

Appearances: 

Hon.  Charles  D.  Newton,  Attorney-General, 
Hon.  Samuel  A.  Berger,  Deputy  Attorney-General, 
Archibald  E.  Stevenson,  Esq.,  Associate  Counsel. 

Mr.  Charles  A.  Hotaling,  Sergeant-at-Arms. 


LUDWIG  C.  A.  K.  MARTENS  resumed  the  stand: 

The  Witness. — Mr.  Chairman,  permit  me  to  make  a  request 
to  adjourn  the  present  hearing  until  Monday.  I  have  arranged 
for  some  conferences  with  my  lawyers  and  want  to  discuss  the 
whole  situation  more  thoroughly  and  we  need  time.  I  could  not 
do  it  yesterday  and  could  not  do  it  today.  So  probably  Friday 
and  Saturday  would  be  sufficient  for  me  to  go  over  the  whole 
ground  again  and  maybe  if  you  will  postpone  the  hearing  until 
Monday  it  will  suit  my  purposes. 

The  Chairman. —  I  should  have  to  take  that  up  with  the  Com- 
mittee, Mr.  Martens.  Monday  is  a  very  inconvenient  day  for  the 
people  from  Up-State.  I  suggest  in  view  of  the  request  of  Mr. 
Martens  that  we  go  into  executive  session  to  discuss  the  request.  I 
should  prefer  Wednesday  or  Thursday. 


96 

The  Attorney-General. —  Would  the  4th  of  Deoembav  be  as  con- 
venient to  you  as  Monday? 

The  Witness. —  The  fourth  is  all  right. 

The  Attorney-General. —  That  would  give  you  three  more  days 
if  the  Committte  considers  your  request  favorably.  I  am  doing 
that  so  that  we  will  have  that  date  in  mind.  Some  of  the  mem- 
bers of  the  Committee  are  busy  men  and  they  have  appointments 
for  early  in  the  week. 

The  Witness. — All  right. 

(The  Committee  then  went  into  executive  session.) 

(After  executive  session  the  following  occurred.) 

The  Chairman. —  Mr.  Martens,  the  Committee  have  been  very 
anxious  to  get  this  work  along  as  fast  as  possible,  and  we  hoped 
to  conclude  with  you  as  near  as  possible  to-day.  You  have  come 
here  and  made  a  very  respectful  and  most  sincere  request  for  an 
adjournment.  We  cannot,  owing  to  our  engagements,  adjourn 
until  next  Monday,  but  I  think  it  is  the  sense  of  the  entire  Com- 
mittee to  be  absolutely  fair  to  you  and  to  everyone  elee  who  comes 
before  us,  and  if  it  is  agreeable  to  you  and  you  desire,  your  exam- 
ination can  stand  adjourned  until  the  4th  of  December  at  10:30 
o'clock,  and  you  will  be  present  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

The  Attorney-General. —  That  is  a  week  from  to-morrow. 

The  Witness. —  The  4th  of  December. 

The  Chairman. —  Is  that  agreeable  to  you  ( 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman. —  Then  we  will  suspend  your  examination  until 
December  4th.  at  10:30  A.  M. 


97 


CITY  HALL,  CITY  OF  NEW  YORK, 

THURSDAY,  December  4,  1919. 
The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  adjournment. 

Present: 

Assemblyman  Martin  (Vice-Chairman), 

Senator  Mullan, 

Senator  Boylan, 

Assemblyman  Pellet, 

Assemblyman  Burr, 

Assemblyman  McElligott, 

Senator  Walters. 

Appearances:  I11& 

Hon.  Charles  D.  Newton,  AttomeyiGeneral, 
Hon.  Samuel  E.  Berger,  Deputy  Attorney-General, 
Archibald  E.  Stevenson,  Esq.,  Associate  Counsel, 
Hon.  Frederick  R.  Rich,  Special  Deputy  Attorney-General, 

Mr.  Charles  A.  Hotaling,  Sergeant-at-Arms. 


(The  Committee  went  into  executive  session.) 

The  Chairman. —  The  Attorney-General  has  a  statement  to 
make  in  relation  to  the  result  of  the  conference  with  the  Com- 
mittee. 

Mr.  Berger. —  Mr.  Chairman,  I  appeared  before  Justice  Green- 
baum,  at  chambers,  at  10:15  this  morning,  as  did  also  Dudley 
Field  Malone  and  Charles  Recht,  attorneys  for  L.  C.  A.  K.  Mar- 
tens. Mr.  Justice  Greenbaum  stated  that  he  had  not  yet  decided 
the  pending  application  and  desired  to  thoroughly  go  into  the 
matter  before  rendering  his  opinion.  He  granted  no  temporary 
stay  and  this  Committee  is  not  stayed  at  this  time  from  further 
examining  the  witness  Martens.  In  view  of  the  fact,  however, 


98 

the  motion  is  not  yet  decided,  the  Attorney-General  feels  that 
it  is  ethically  proper  to  suspend  the  examination  of  tUq  witness 
Martens  until  Mr.  Justice  Greenbaum  shall  have  decided  the 
motion  now  pending  before  him.  I  understand  that  His  Honor 
will  probably  decide  the  motion  on  Monday.  I,  therefore,  sug- 
gest, if  it  meet  with  the  approval  of  the  Chairman  of  the  Com- 
mittee, that  some  day  next  week  be  fixed  for  the  examination  of 
the  witness  Martens,  but  that  we  proceed  this  morning  with  such 
other  witnesses  as  we  have  available  at  this  time. 

The  Chairman. —  Well,  that  seems  to  be  the  consensus  of  opin- 
ion of  the  Committee,  that  we  follow  the  suggestions  of  the 
Attorney-General  with  regard  to  the  witness  Martens,  and  that 
his  examination  be  put  down  for  the  llth  at  10:30,  if  that  is 
agreeable  to  the  Committee.  I  think  we  all  agree  on  that ;  so  the 
further  examination  of  the  witness  Martens  is  set  down  for  Thurs- 
day, December  llth,  at  10:30  A.  M.  Is  Mr.  Martens  here? 

Mr.  Martens. —  Yes. 

The  Chairman. —  Well  you  please  bear  that  in  mind,  Mr. 
Martens,  Thursday,  December  llth,  at  10:30? 

We  will  continue  the  examination  of  the  doctor,  if  he  is  here. 
Dr.  Mislig,  you  may  sit  here. 


99 


MEETING  OF  JOINT  LEGISLATIVE  COMMITTEE  OF  THE 

STATE  OF  NEW  YORK  TO  INVESTIGATE 

SEDITIOUS  ACTIVITIES 


CITY  HALL,  CITY  OF  NEW  YORK, 

THURSDAY,  December  11,  1919. 
The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  recess  (11:15  A.  M.) 

Present: 

Assemblyman  Martin,  Vice-Chairman ; 
Senator  Mullan, 
Assemblyman  Pellett, 
Senator  Walters, 
Assemblyman  McElligott, 
Assemblyman  Burr. 

Appearances: 

Hon.  Charles  D.  Newton,  Attorney-General; 
Hon.  Samuel  A.  Berger,  Deputy  Attorney-General ; 
Archibald  E.  Stevenson,  Esq.,  Associate  Counsel. 

Mr.  Charles  A.  Hotaling,  Sergeant-at-Arms. 


The  Chairman. —  The  Committee  will  convene.    Are  you  ready 
now,  Mr.  Berger? 

Mr.  Berger. —  Yes. 

The  Chairman. — Are  you  ready,  General  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  Yes. 

The  Chairman. —  Is  Mr.  Martens  here  ? 

Assemblyman  Pellett. —  Yes,  he  is  here. 

LUPWIG  C.  A.  K.  MARTENS,  having  been  previously  sworn, 
resumed  the  stand  and  testified  as  follows: 

The  Chairman. —  Mr.  Martens,  you  have  already  been  sworn  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes. 

The  Chairman. —  Well,  proceed. 


100 

Mr.  .Berger. —  1  offer  in  evidence  a  copy  of  the  opinion  of  M  r. 
Justice  Greenbaum,  dated  December  '.',  l'.>l!i.  this  being  a  re- 
print. 

The  Chairman. —  Received. 

(Copy  of  opinion  of  Mr.  Justice  Greenbaum,  dated  December 
9,  1919,  referred  to,  received  in  evidence  and  marked  Exhibit 
No.  346  of  this  date.) 

The  exhibit  is  as  follows: 

"  Matter  of  Martens. —  The  application  above  mentioned 
moves  on  its  own  affidavit  for  an  order  to  cancel  a  subpoena 
duces  tecum  issued  by  a  joint  Legislative  Committee  and 
heretofore  served  upon  him  and  to  restrain  and  enjoin  that 
committee  '  from  issuing  any  other  or  further  subpoena, 
order  or  direction  requiring  the  said  L.  C.  A.  K.  Martens  to 
appear  before  that  Comm/ittee  or  the  Attorney-General  of  the 
State  of  New  York,  or  any  other  person  or  body,  and  to 
produce  any  books,  papers,  documents  and  correspondence 
with  the  government  of  the  Russian  Socialistic  Federal 
Soviet  Republic,  or  to  be  examined  concerning  the  same  and 
for  such  further  and  other  relief  as  the  court  may  deem 
proper.'  The  moving  papers  contain  a  copy  of  a  resolution 
adopted  by  the  Legislature  of  the  State  of  New  York  pro- 
viding for  the  appointment  of  a  joint  committee  of  the  Sen- 
ate and  Assembly  to  investigate  the  scope,  tendencies  and 
ramifications  of  seditious  activities  in  the  community  desir- 
ing to  accomplish  the  overthrow  of  the  government  of  this 
State,  and  to  report  the  result  of  its  investigations  to  the 
Legislature,  to  the  end  that  it  may  enact  '  such  legislation 
as  may  be  necessary  to  protect  the  government  of  the  State.' 
The  resolution  empowers  the  Committee  inter  alia  '  to  compel 
the  attendance  of  witnesses  and  the  production  of  books 
and  papers  and  shall  have  power  to  sit  any- 

where within  the  State,  and  shall  otherwise  have 
all  the  powers  of  a  legislative  committee,  as  pro- 
vided in  the  legislative  law,  including  the  adoption 
of  rules  for  the  conduct  of  these  proceedings.'  The 
motion  papers  are  also  accompanied  with  a  copy  of  the 
subpoana  duces  tecum  served  upon  the  applicant,  in  which  it 
is  expressly  stated  that  the  applicant  was  called  as  a  witness 


101 

'to  testify  and  give  evidence  in  a  certain  investigation  now 
pending  of  seditious  activities  within  the  State  of  New  York.' 
The  respondent,  the  Legislative  Committee,  through  its 
counsel,  challenges  the  right  of  the  applicant  to  apply  to  this 
court  in  a  summary  manner  by  affidavit  either  to  set  aside 
the  subpoena  or  to  grant  the  injunction  as  asked  for.  The 
attention  of  the  court  has  not  been  called  by  the  applicant  to 
any  authority  in  the  code  of  civil  procedure  or  elsewhere 
which  would  entitle  him  to  the  relief  sought  by  means  of  a 
summary  motion  upon  his  affidavit.  It  does  not  appear  that 
there  is  any  action  pending  in  this  court  by  the  applicant 
against  the  committee,  or  that  this  proceeding  is  made  pur- 
suant to  any  provision  of  the  code  of  civil  procedure.  The 
resolution  expressly  empowers  the  Legislative  Committee 
to  issue  subpoenas.  Section  854  of  the  Code  also  authorizes 
the  issuance  of  a  subpoena  under  the  hand  of  the  Chairman 
of  the  Committee,  which  appears  to  have  been  done  in  the 
matter  under  review.  The  subpoena  by  its  terms  shows  that 
the  purpose  of  the  examination  of  the  applicant  was  strictly 
in  accordance  with  the  scope  of  the  inquiry  which  the  Com- 
mittee was  empowered  to  conduct.  The  counsel  for  the  appli- 
cant justifies  the  motion  by  reason  of  the  provisions  of  sec- 
tion 867  of  the  code  of  civil  procedure,  and  particularly 
that  portion  of  it  which  provides  as  follows:  'At  any  time 
after  service  of  such  a  subpoena  or  order  the  witness  may 
obtain,  upon  such  a  notice  as  the  judge,  referee  or  other 
officer  prescribes,  an  order  relieving  him  wholly  or  partly 
from  the  obligations  imposed  upon  him  by  the  subpoena  or 
the  order  for  production,  upon  such  terms  as  justice  requires 
touching  the  inspection  of  the  book  or  any  portion  thereof, 
or  taking  a  copy  thereof  or  extracts  therefrom  or  otherwise.' 
A  study  of  that  section  clearly  indicates  that  it  refers  only 
to  a  trial  or  hearing  pending  in  a  court,  in  which  case  an 
order  may  be  made  by  the  judge  or  by  a  referee  duly  ap- 
pointed in  the  cause,  relieving  the  witness  from  the  obliga- 
tions imposed  upon  him  by  the  subpoena,  or  to  a  special  pro- 
ceeding pending  out  of  court  before  an  officer,  in  which  case 
such  an  order  may  be  made  by  the  officer  or  referee.  More- 
over, it  will  be  observed  that  that  section  refers  only  to  a 
1  book  of  account '  and  to  no  other  papers.  The  motion  must 
be  denied.  Settle  order  on  notice. 


102 

"  Van  DeWeghe  v.  Director-General  of  Railroads;  Twohill 
v.  Markowitz;  Lombard!  v.  Kalbach ;  Gottfried  v.  Same; 
Whittaker  v.  42d  St.,  &c.,  R'y;  Pedersen  v.  Nelson  (2); 
.Obstgarten  v.  Friedman ;  York  v.  Third  Ave.  RR. ;  Kava- 
naugh  v.  Same;  Gluck  v.  Union  R'y;  Elms  v.  Weinstein; 
Kruhl  v.  Dry  Dock,  &c.,  RR. ;  Caleb  v.  Third  Ave.  RR.  (2)  ; 
Calisse  v.  N.  Y.  R'ys;  Crawford  v.  42d  St.,  &c.,  RR. ;  Kal- 
bach v.  Kalbach;  Greene  v.  Director-General  of  Railroads; 
Brandt  v.  Union  Ry." 

By  Mr.  Stevenson : 

Q.  Mr.  Martens,  you  have  been  sworn '(     A.  Yes. 

Q.  After  the  November  revolution  of  1917,  when  the  Russian 
Communist  Party  assumed  control  of  the  government,  did  they  not 
allow  the  greatest  freedom  of -speech  to  the  press  and  in  the  Assem- 
bly in  Russia  ?  A.  Yes,  they  did. 

Q.  And  subsequent  to  that  time,  were  there  elections  held  for  a 
Constituent  Assembly?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  were  those  elections  held  throughout  the  entire  terri- 
tory under  the  control  of  the  Soviets  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  About  how  long  a  period  was  occupied  in  those  campaigns 
for  those  elections  ?  A.  I  think  a  couple  of  months. 

Q.  And  were  delegates  chosen  during  those  campaigns  for 
members  of  the  constituent  assembly  ?  A.  Yes,  they  were. 

Q.  And  what  were  the  various  parties  that  ran  candidates  for 
that  assembly?  A.  The  three  main  parties:  One,  so-called,  the 
Bolsheviks;  the  other  the  Social  Revolutionists;  the  other,  th'- 
Mensheviks ;  and  Constitutional  Democrats  —  four  parties. 

Q.  And  what  was  the  result  of  that  election?  What  were  the 
various  proportions  of  delegates  returned  to  that  assembly?  A.  I 
don't  remember  exactly  the  figures.  It  was  approximately  40  per 
cent  Bolsheviks  and  about  as  many  Social  Revolutionists,  and  the 
rest  for  the  other  parties. 

The  Chairman. —  Did  you  say  40  per  cent  Bolsheviks? 
The  Witness. —  Yes,  40  per  cent. 

By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  So  that  the  majority  of  that  assembly  constituted  other  than 
the  Bolshevik  representatives  ?  A.  Nobody  constituted  a  majority. 


103 

.  Q.  I  mean  a  majority  of  the  delegates  were  not  Bolshevik 
representatives?  A.  Yes. 

Q,  Did  that  assembly  ever  meet  ?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  did  it  meet?     A.  In  December,  1917,  I  think. 

Q.  And  where  did  it  meet  ?     A.  Petrograd. 

Q.  And  was  that  assembly  permitted  to  sit?  A.  Until  a  cer- 
tain time,  yes. 

Q.  And  then  what  was  done  to  it  ?  A.  Well,  then  the  Soviets 
demanded  a  revolutionary  assembly  and  it  was  dissolved. 

Q.   It  was  dissolved?     A.  Yes. 

The  Attorney-General. —  About  when  was  that  ? 

The  Witness. —  January,  1918,  I  think;  it  began  in  January, 
1918. 

The  Attorney-General. —  January,  1918? 

The  Witness. —  Yes.  ,  , ,  \ 

By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  After  the  dissolution  of  the  Constituent  Assembly,  was  the 
same  freedom  of  speech  allowed  as  had  been  allowed  previous  to 
that  time?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  It  was  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  When  was  the  revolutionary  tribunal  of  the  press  set  up? 
A.  It  was  set  up  after  the  beginning  of  the  intervention. 

Q.  When  was  that?    A.  The  summer  of  1918. 

Q.  When  was  the  revolutionary  tribunal  set  up?  A.  Also  the 
same  time. 

Q.  And  was  that  the  time  when  the  terror  was  instituted  ?  A. 
It  was  the  time  when  several  of  the  people  were  assassinated  and 
when  an  attempt  was  made  to  assassinate  Lenine  and  the  People's 
Commissar. 

Q.  And  the  purpose  of  those  tribunals  was  to  prosecute  counter 
revolutionary  activities  ?  A.  Exactly. 

Q.  And  then  a  party  agitating  against  the  Soviets  were  consti- 
tuted counter  revolutionaries,  were  they  ?  A.  Yes,  several  parties ; 
one  of  them  was  the  Anarchists,  constituted  to  overthrow  the  gov- 
ernment was  done  by  the  Constitutional  Democrats. 

Q.  Were  they  the  "  cadets  ?  "    A.  Yes. 

Q.  So  they  were  the  principal  parties  that  had  been  active  in 
the  campaign  for  the  Constituent  Assembly,  were  they  not?  A. 
Oh,  no. 


104 

Q.  Well,  the  Cadets  you  mentioned  (  A.  The  Cadets  and  Social 
Revolutionists. 

Q.  Those  two  parties  were  treated  as  counter  revolutionists, 
were  they  not  ?  A.  Yes,  and  the  Anarchists,  too. 

Q.  When  did  you  see  Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh  last  I  A.  Frank  P. 
Walsh,  I  saw  about  three*  weeks  ago. 

Q.  And  was  at  a  conference  between  Mr.  Walsh,  Mr.  Fitz- 
patrick  and  yourself  ?  A.  No,  Mr.  Fitzpatrick  was  not  there. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  ?  Was  this  conference  at  Mr.  Walsh's  office  i 
A.  No. 

Q.  Where  did  it  take  place  ?  A.  Oh,  yes,  I  think  it  was  at  Mr. 
Walsh's  office. 

Q.  Are  you  certain  Mr.  Fitzpatrick  was  not  present '(  A.  No, 
he  was  not. 

Q.  Well,  who  was  present  at  the  conference  that  you  had  with 
Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh?  A.  Well,  Mr.  Walsh  himself  and  Mr. 
Nuorteva  and  I  myself. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  there  was  no  one  else  present  at  that  confer- 
ence ?  A.  Oh,  Mr.  Hourvich. 

Q.  Who  else  ?    A.  No  one  else. 

Q.  No  other  man  present  '*    A.  No,  110. 

Q.  Well,  where  else  did  you  meet  Mr.  Walsh  besides  his  office  ? 
A.  A  couple  of  days  before  this  conference  I  met  him  at  his  house. 

Q.  At  what  hotel  did  you  have  a  conference  with  Mr.  Walsh? 
A.  I  don't  remember  the  name,  it  was  somewhere  in  Park  avenue. 

Q.  And  who  was  present  at  that  conference?    A.  We  three. 

Q.  Just  you  three  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  —  what  was  the  subject  of  the  confer- 
ence? A.  I  invited  Mr.  Walsh  to  participate,  or  to  act  as  my 
counsel. 

Q.  And  YOU  are  certain  that  Mr.  John  Fitzpatrick  was  not 
present  at  either  of  these  conferences  ?  A.  I  am  certain. 

Q.  The  only  subject  which  you  discussed  with  Mr.  Walsh  was 
whether  he  would  be  your  counsel  or  not  ?  A.  Yes.  If  another 
person  was  present  it  was  Mr.  Recht.  I  forgot  about  him.  Mr. 
Recht  was  present  also. 

Q.  Are  you  sure  there  were  not  any  other  persons  present? 
A.  No,  nobody  else. 

Q.  Can  you  fix  the  date  of  that  conference  ?  A.  I  think  it  was 
around  November  20th,  I  am  not  sure  about  the  date,  but  some- 
where around  there. 


105 

Q.  You  are  referring  now  to  the  conference  at  his  office?  A. 
His  office  and  his  home,  because  at  his  home,  we  were  about  two 
days  before  the  conference  at  his  office. 

Q.  So  you  would  say  one  of  these  conferences  was  abo.ut  the 
18th  of  November?  A.  Yes,  or  one  may  have  been  the  20th  of 
November,  and  the  other  about  the  22nd  of  November. 

Q.  Yo.u  have  stated  that  one  of  the  principal  businesses  of  your 
office  was  to  counteract  the  false  impressions  which  are  being  given 
of  Soviet  Russia?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  how  do  you  go  about  it  ?  A.  I  don't  understand  your 
question,  Mr.  Stevenson. 

Q.  What  methods  do.  you  employ  ?  A.  We  are  publishing  a 
paper  under  the  name  of  Soviet  Russia.  It  is  a  weekly  and  con- 
sists of  about  24  to  32  pages  of  information. 

Q.  And  do  you  publish  in  that  paper  documents  received  from 
Russia  ?  A.  Yes,  sometimes. 

Q.  And  original  articles  by  persons  that  you  select  to  describe 
conditions  in  Russia  ?  A.  Yes,  yes. 

Q.  What  other  methods  do  you  employ  ?  A.  Well,  that  is  the 
only  method  I  am  employing  for  this  purpose. 

Q.  Well,  you  make  addresses  yourself  on  this  subject?  A. 
Well,  very  seldom ;  sometimes. 

Q.  AVhere  have  you  recently  addressed  audiences  on  the  subject 
of  Soviet  Russia  ?  A.  The  last  time  I  addressed  was  the  7th  of 
November,  here  in  New  York. 

Q.  And  before  what  organization  ?  A.  Public  meetings 
arranged  by  the  Community  Labor  Party. 

Q.  What  other  organization  have  you  addressed  ?  A.  I  was 
invited  to.  speak  at  meetings  of  the  Socialist  Party. 

Q.  Were  you  invited  to  speak  at  meetings  of  the  Communist 
Party?  A.  Yes,  I  was. 

Q.  Did  you  accept  ?    A.  Yes,  I  did  accept. 

Q.  And  you  were  prevented  ?     A.   The  meeting  was  called  off. 

Q.  That  was  after  November  8th  ?    A.  November  9th,  I  think. 

Q.  Was  it  on  a  Sunday  evening?  A.  No,  I  think  it  was  on 
Monday. 

Q.  And  where  was  that  ?  A.  Somewhere  in  Brooklyn,  as  far  as 
I  remember. 

Q.  What  was  the  nature  of  your  addresses  ?  A.  My  addresses 
refer  exclusively  to  conditions  in  Russia. 

Q.  And  you  describe  the  workings  of  the  Soviet  regime? 
A.  Yes. 


106 

Q.  Do  members  of  your  staff  address  meetings '(  A.  Some- 
times. 

Q.  Do  they  address  meetings  without  your  knowledge  and  con- 
sent i  A.  No,  only  with  my  knowledge  and  consent. 

Q.  So  that  any  meetings  which  they  address  are  approved  by 
you?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Had  Mr.  Nuorteva  made  any  public  addresses  recently? 
A.  Yes,  he  made  some. 

Q.  Where?     A.  Here  in  New  York. 

Q.  Well,  he  has  made  some  addresses  outside  of  New  York, 
has  he  not  ?  A.  I  think  in  Newark  once,  that's  about  all  as  far 
as  I  remember. 

Q.  Well,  has  be  made  any  addresses  in  Pennsylvania  recently? 
A.  No. 

Q.  When  did  he  return  from  Pennsylvania  ?  A.  I  don't  think 
he  was  ever —  during  the  last  few  months  he  has  not  been  in 
Pennsylvania. 

Q.  Not  in  Pennsylvania  in  the  last  few  months  ?•    A.  No. 

Q.  Who  from  your  office  has  been  in  Pennsylvania  in  the  last 
few  months  ?  A.  Nobody. 

Q.  Nobody  at  all?     A.  Nobody  at  all. 

Q.  What  other  methods  have  you  found  useful  to  employ  ?  A. 
For  what  purpose  ? 

Q.  For  the  propaganda  of  Soviet  Russia  ?  A.  That  is  the  only 
method,  giving  statements  in  the  press  also  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  Well,  have  you  any  correspondents  in  Washington  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  Or  persons  who  act  for  you  in  Washington  ?  A.  From  time 
to  time  I  am  sending  myself  some  from  our  staff  to  Washington. 

Q.  Well,  don't  you  have  anybody  in  Washington  to  act  for  you  ? 
A.  No. 

Q.  Well,  do  you  know  if  any  of  your  employees  have  anyone  in 
Washington  ?  A.  Any  of  my  employees  having  somebody  in 
Washington  ? 

Q.  Yes.     A.  No. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  ma-de  any  request  for  information  respecting 
persons  who  might  be  favorable  to  the  recognition  of  Soviet  Russia 
in  Washington?  A.  Oh,  certainly,  I  try  to  find  out  everything 
concerning  the  views  of  the  United  States  Government. 

Q.  I  see.  Well,  what  methods  have  you  employed  to  find  that 
out  ?  A.  Often  I  send  some  of  my  staff  to  Washington. 

Q.  Whom  do  you  usually  send  ?  A.  On  a  couple  of  occasion* 
I  sent  Mr.  Clark  and  Mr.  Nuorteva. 


107 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  You  mean  by  the  United  States  Government  the  members 
of  Congress?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  members  of  the  State  Department  ?    A.  Yes. 

By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  You  were  saying  whom  you  sent.  A.  Yes,  sir;  Mr.  Xuor- 
teva,  Mr.  Clark  and  Mr.  Dudand. 

Q.  How  do  they  go  about  ascertaining  the  sentiments  of  the 
various  members  ?  How  do  they  go  about  to  ascertain  the  senti- 
ments of  the  various  members  of  our  government  ?  A.  Well,  how 
it  is  usually  done,  they  have  friends,  acquaintances,  talks;  that 
is  the  way  the  matter  is  gotten  at. 

Q.  Well,  are  they  charged  with  the  duty  of  bringing  informa- 
tion to  any  of  these  members  of  the  government  ?  A.  No. 

Q.  They  have  never  done  so?  A.  We  are  sending  to  every 
member  of  the  government,  Congress  and  Senate,  our  publications 
and  statements  are  regularly  sent  to  every  one  of  them. 

Q.  What  would  be  your  object  in  ascertaining  the  attitude  of 
various  representatives  and  officers  of  the  government?  A.  You 
can  easily  imagine,  Mr.  Stevenson,  it  would  interest  us  pro- 
foundly, every  change  of  sentiment  and  every  change  of  relation 
between  all  these  questions,  they  interest  us  and  we  want  to  find 
out. 

Q.  Well,  what  do  you  do  with  the  information  which  you  gather 
respecting  these  matters  ?  A.  Well,  we  keep  it  to  ourselves. 

Q.  Do  you  make  reports  to  your  home  government?  A.  Oh, 
yes,  certainly. 

Q.  And  these  reports  contain  statements  of  the  sentiments  of 
the  various  officers  of  our  government  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Are  those  reports  detailed  ?     A.  More  or  less. 

Q.  And  you  keep  copies  of  these  reports?    A.  Yes,  I  do. 

Q.  And  do  the  communications  which  you  receive  from  your 
home  government  contain  any  references  to  your  reports  respect- 
ing these  matters  ?  A.  Well,  to  a  very  small  extent,  but  not  much. 

Q.  And  do  they  contain  instructions  for  you  to  proceed  ?  A. 
Well,  I  have  more  or  less  general  powers  to  proceed  as  the 
situation  allows. 

Q.  Has  part  of  your  work  been  to  create  sentiment  here  for 
the  withdrawal  of  American  troops  from  Russia  ?  A.  Partly  for 


108 

the  lifting  of  the  blockade,  recognition  of  the  Soviet  government, 
and  as  a  result  of  it  the  withdrawal  of  troops  from  Russia. 

By  Mr.  Stevenson: 

Q.  Does  your  commercial  department  suggest  to  business  men 
to  urge  the  recognition  of  Soviet  Russia?  A.  No,  our  commer- 
cial department  suggests  to  business  men  to  ask  the  State  Depart- 
ment for  export  licenses. 

Q.  But  it  is  never  hinted  to  any  of  your  business  correspond- 
ents that  they  should  urge  the  recognition  of  Soviet  Russia  '*. 
A.  No.  How  could  they  do  it  ? 

By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  Mr.  Martens,  I  believe  you  stated  at  an  earlier  hearing 
that  you  were  interested  solely  in  the  troubles  of  citizens  of  Russia 
in  this  country ;  is  that  right  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  are  not  particularly  concerned  with  the  troubles 
or  woes  of  parties  who  are  not  citizens  ?  A.  No,  not  at  all. 

Q.  Well,  then,  will  you  kindly  explain  your  conference  with 
Mr.  Larkin  yesterday  ?  A.  Who  is  Mr.  Larkin  — 

Q.  You  know  Mr.  Larkin,  do  you  not?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  the  Committee  whether  your  conference  with 
him  had  any  connection  with  the  indictment  for  criminal  anarchy  ? 
A.  Not  the  slightest. 

Q.  Will  you  tell  us  what  it  was  ?  A.  He  brought  one  of  his 
friends  to  me  who  wanted  to  shake  hands  with  me. 

Q.  Did  you,  directly  or  indirectly,  put  up  any  part  of  the  bail 
in  the  Larkin  case?  A.  Not  a  cent. 

Q.  Mr.  Recht  is  your  attorney?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  Charles  Recht'?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Will  you  state  whether  it  was  by  your  direction,  or  with 
your  approval,  that  Mr.  Recht,  the  counsel  for  your  Bureau, 
appeared  for  Larkin  and  Gitlow?  A.  I  have  not  the  slightest 
relation  to  the  Larkin  and  Gitlow  case.  It  is  purely  Mr.  Recht's 
business  and  I  have  not  the  slightest  connection  with  it. 

Q.  Well,  tho  matter  was  discussed,  though,  WHS  it  not?  A.  It 
was  on  several  occasions  mentioned  but  I  did  not  discuss  any 
situation  arising  from  the  transactions  of  Communists  or  the 
Communist  Labor  Party.  It  does  not  concern  me  absolutely. 

Q.  Well  now  that  was  not  the  first  time.that  Mr.  Larkin  called 
to  see  yoii,  yesterday  ?  A.  Oh,  all  together,  two  or  three  times. 


109 

Q.  What  was  the  first  time?  When  was  the  first  time?  A. 
Long  ago. 

Q.  How  long  ago.     A.  Maybe  five  or  six  months  ago, 

Q.  And  when  was  the  second  time  (  A.  Oh,  say  about  at  that 
time ;  but  I  did  not  see  him  for  at  least  three  or  four  months. 

Q.  Well,  you  saw  him  between  the  time  of  his  arrest  on  the 
charge  of  criminal  anarchy,  yesterday,  did  you  not  —  A.  No. 

Q.  Did  anyone  see  you  in  his  behalf  i    A.  Xo. 

Q.  You  recall  the  circumstances  of  some  eighteen  or  nineteen 
men  being  arrested,  about  a  month  ago,  charged  with  criminal 
anarchy,  and  for  whom  Mr.  Reeht  appeared  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  was  your  interest  in  that  matter?  A.  Xo  interest 
at  all.  I  do  not  know  the  men  and  they  never  appealed  to  me 
for  any  assistance. 

Q.  Well,  some  of  them  are  Russian  citizens  ?  A.  I  under- 
stand so. 

Q.  Were  you  not  interested  in  their  cases?  A.  Well,  I  have 
too  much  to  do  to  be  interested  in  everything.  I  would  gladly 
render  them  assistance  if  I  could. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  not  a  fact,  Mr.  Martens,  that  some  of  those  men 
appealed  to  you  for  aid  ?  A.  Xo,  sir. 

Q.  Not  one  of  them  ?    A.  Xo,  not  one  of  them. 

Q.  And  do  you  know  that  Mr.  Recht  deposited  $500  as  part 
of  the  bail  in  the  Larkin  case  ?  A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  that  to  be  a  fact.    A.  Xo. 

Q.  Did  you  have  anything  to  do  with  that  $500?  A.  Xothing 
at  all. 

Q.  ,Xot  directly  or  indirectly  ?     A.  Xot  directly  or  indirectly. 

Q.  Or  anyone  in  your  Bureau  ?    A.  Or  anyone  in  my  Bureau. 

Q.  Will  you  state  positively  that  it  was  not  after  conference 
with  you  that  Mr.  Recht  appeared  for  those  eighteen  or  nineteen 
men.  A.  Absolutely  positively,  Mr.  Berger. 

Q.  Well,  now,  you  stated  to  us  that  it  was  the  policy  of  the 
Bureau,  and  of  your  legal  department  in  particular,  to  give  aid 
and  assistance  to  citizens  of  Russia  who  were  in  difficulties  here  ? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  have  not  reversed  that  policy,  have  you?  A.  Xo,  not 
at  all. 

Q.  And  in  spite  of  that  policy  not  having  been  reversed,  you 
say  that  you  did  not  in  any  way  give  assistance  to  any  of  these 
people?  A.  Xo. 


110 

Q.  Neither  by  advice  or  counsel  or  financial  assistance,  or  ill 
any  other  way  f.  A.  \n. 

Q.  Are  you  in  touch  with  the  leaders  of  the  Communist  Party 
in  this  country  I  A.  What  do  you  call  "  in  touch?  " 

Q.  In  conference  ?     A.  No. 

Q.  Are  you  in  correspondence  with  them  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  know  them '(    A.  I  know  one  or  two  of  them. 

Q.  Whom  do  you  know,  Mr.  Martens?  A.  Well,  I  met  Git- 
low;  I  met  Larkin,  too.  Once  I  spoke  on  the  same  platform  as 
Mr.  Ruthenberg. 

Q.  Where  was  that,  the  Madison  Square  Garden?  A.  Madi- 
son Square  Garden. 

Q.  June  20th  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  others  ?     A.  No. 

Q.  Cohen?    A.  -No. 

Q.  Fraina?     A.  Yes,  I  think  I  met  him  on  several  occasions. 

Q.  Your  sympathies  are  with  their  doctrines,  to  be  perfectly 
frank,  Mr.  Martens?  A.  Well,  to  be  perfectly  frank,  I  have  not 
seen  their  program.  Maybe  they  make  mistakes.  I  cannot  judge. 
All  I  can  tell  you  is  I  have  absolutely  no  connection  with  the 
Communist  Party. 

Q.  But  you  know  their  general  plan  and  scope  and  ideas  on 
which  the  Communist  Party  of  America  is  founded?  A.  Why, 
certainly.  I  suppose  it  is  the  same  as  the  Russian  Communist 
Party. 

Q.  So,  being  the  same  as  the  Russian  Communist  Party, 
naturally  your  sympathies  are  with  them?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  believe,  do  you  not,  that  the  principles  the  Com- 
munist Party  of  America  advocates  in  this  country  ought  to  be 
carried  out  in  this  country,  do  you  not,  to  be  perfectly  frank? 
A.  No,  I  would  not  answer  that.  To  be  perfectly  frank  with  you, 
Mr.  Berger,  I  would  not  answer  yes  or  no  before  I  see  and  before 
I  study  the  program  of  the  Communist  Party  of  America.  I  did 
not  study  it  and  have  never  had  a  chance  to  do  it,  and  so  I  cannot 
answer  you  yes  or  no. 

Q.  You  know,  though,  that  they  are  founded  on  the  same  prin- 
ciples ;  that  it  is  founded  on  the  same  principles  as  the  principles 
of  the  Russian  Communist  Party  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well,  now,  assuming  that  they  are  founded  on  the  same 
principles  —  which  I  may  tell  you  they  are  —  do  you,  or  do  you 
not,  sympathize  with  their  views?  A.  Well,  every  .Socialist  sym- 
pathizes with  every  other  Socialist. 


Ill 

Q.  Will  you  be  specific?  I  am  asking  you  a  direct  question. 
Assuming  that  the  principles  of  the  Communist  Party  of  America 
are  substantially  the  same  as  those  of  the  Communist  Party  of 
Russia,  do  you  believe  that  those  principles  should  be  carried  out 
in  this  country  ?  Now,  that  is  a  plain  question  and  is  susceptible 
of  a  yes  or  no  answer.  A.  Every  party  has  certain  principles  that 
they  wish  to  carry  out.  It  is  the  desire  of  the  Communist  Party 
to  carry  out  their  principles. 

Q.  You  have  not  answered  the  question.  A.  What  is  the 
question  ? 

Mr.  Berger. — Will  you  please  read  the  question  again? 

(Question  read  by  reporter.) 
A.  No,  I  cannot  answer  yes  or  no. 

Q.  Well,  what  is  the  best  answer  you  can  make  as  to  your 
belief,  your  sympathies?  A.  I  can  answer  that  everyone  who 
professes  certain  principles  ought  to  carry  them  out. 

Q.  Well,  now,  of  course A.  But  the  Communist  Party 

of  America  does  not  concern  me. 

Q.  What  are  your  sympathies  in  that  direction?  Are  you 
inimical  to  them  ?  Are  you  against  them  ?  A.  No,  I  am  not. 

Q.  Well,  then,  are  you  for  them?  A.  Well,  I  am  neither  for 
nor  against. 

Q.  You  are  not  against  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  Are  you  for  them  ?    A.  I  am  not  against  them. 

Q.  I  know  you  are  not  against  them;  are  you  for  those  prin- 
ciples? A.  Mr.  Berger,  do  you  want  to  pin  me  down? 

Q.  I  want  to  pin  you  down  to  an  answer  to  my  question.  A. 
The  Communist  Party,  or  Communist  Liberal  Party  of  America, 
does  not  concern  me  absolutely.  I  refuse  to  answer  anything 
regarding  that  party.  They  do  not  concern  me  at  all. 

Q.  But  you  have  spoken  on  the  same  platform  as  the  leaders 
of  that  party?  A.  Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  Now,  you  believe  that  the  principles  of  the  Communist 
Party  are  good  for  Russia,  do  you  not?  A.  Certainly. 

Q.  And  you  believe  they  ought  to  be  carried  out  in  Russia  ?  A. 
Certainly. 

Q.  You  also  believe  that  those  principles  ought  to  be  extended 
throughout  the  whole  world,  do  you  not  ?  A.  Well,  that  is  a 
matter  for  the  world  to  decide. 

Q.  I  am  asking  for  your  belief.  We  are  not  interested  in  the 
belief  of  the  world.  I  want  your  belief.  A.  Mr.  Berger,  you 
want  to  connect  me  with  this  propaganda. 


112 

Q.  1  urn  not  trying  to  do  anything  of  the  kind.  We  want  to 
get  your  views.  You  arc  an  intelligent  man  and  we  want  to  get 
your  views.  A.  Mr.  Berger,  the  last  time  you  stated  I  admitted 
advocating  a  revolution  in  the  I'nitol  States  of  America. 

Q.  We  stood  on  the  record.  To  get  back  to  the  question :  You 
believe  that  those  principles  would  be  good  for  the  rest  of  the 
world  as  well  as  for  Russia?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  the  United  States  is  a  part  of  the  rest  of  the  world, 
is  it  not?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well,  then,  do  you  believe  that  they  would  be  good  for  the 
interests  of  this  country  and  the  people  of  this  country?  A.  I  do 
not  only  believe,  I  know.  I  know  that  every  country  in  the  world 
will  be  a  believer  in  Socialistic  principles.  That  is  a  matter  of 
knowledge. 

Q.  That  is  simply  an  opinion  ?  A.  No,  it  is  a  matter  of  knowl- 
edge. 

Q.  Are  you  possessed  of  prescience  ?    A.  No,  not  at  all. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  that  that  is  going  to  occur;  you  simply 
believe  in  it?  A.  No.  Socialism  will  conquer  the  world.  I 
know  it. 

Q.  And  you  are  doing  your  share  to  help  conquer  this  par- 
ticular portion  of  it  ?  A.  1  am  doing  my  share  to  help  Soviet 
Russia. 

Q.  Now,  will  you  state  more  fully  what  the  substance  of  the 
conference  between  you  and  Larkin  was?  A.  Nothing  at  all. 
It  was  no  conference  at  all.  Simply  a  friend  of  Larkin's  wanted 
to  shake  hands  with  me,  wanted  to  see  me;  and  he  came  in  and 
stayed  about  five  minutes  in  my  office. 

Q.  You  mean  Larkin  brought  this  friend  and  presented  him  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Who  was  the  friend  ?  A.  I  have  forgotten  his  name,  but  I 
think  I  have  his  card  on  my  table. 

Q.  Is  he  an  American  citizen  ?     A.  No. 

Q.  A  Russian?     A.  English. 

Q.  Did  you  send  greetings  to  the  fifth  convention  of  the  con- 
ference of  Russian  branches  of  the  Communist  party,  in  this  city, 
between  August  20th  and  August  28th?  A.  No. 

Q.  Well,  did  you  send  greetings  to  any  convention  of  the  Rus- 
sian branches  of  the  Communist  party,  in  this  city?  A.  No,  I 
did  not. 

Q.  You  did  not?     A.  No. 


113 

Q.  If  there  are  entries  in  the  minute  book  of  this  particular 
organization  to  that  effect,  are  those  entries  incorrect  ?  A.  I  do 
not  remember. 

Q.  If  there  is  an  entry  in  the  minute  book  of  this  organization 
that  you  sent  greetings  to  them,  is  that  incorrect  ?  A.  Sometimes 
I  am  receiving  greetings  from  all  kinds  of  branches,  conferences 
and  so  on;  and  usually  I  am  answering  a  simple  letter  and  send- 
ing greetings ;  so  that  may  be  the  case. 

Q.  You  have  been  kept  quite  fully  informed,  have  you  not,  by 
Mr.  Recht,  concerning  the  various  steps  taken  in  the  cases  of  the 
men  recently  arrested  in  this  city  ?  A.  No,  I  have  not  had  time 
to  discuss  it. 

Q.  Well,  what  have  you  been  so  busy  with,  Mr.  Martens,  if 
that  is  not  an  impertinent  question  ?  A.  Well,  Mr.  Berger,  you 
gave  me  a  lot  of  trouble. 

Q.  Not  all  the  time.     A.  Well,  still  I  have  my  other  business. 

Q.  In  what  direction  ?  A.  My  usual  business  and  correspond- 
ence with  different  commercial  firms,  and  attending  to  office  busi- 
ness. It  takes  my  time. 

Q.  You  are  in  sympathy*  are  you  not,  Mr.  Martens,  with  the 
principles  expressed  in  the  call  for  the  Third  International  ?  A. 
Which  do  you  mean,  Mr.  Berger? 

Q.  Well,  as  I  understand,  there  is  only  one  call  for  the  Third 
International.  A.  Which  one? 

Q.  Well,  the  call,  the  call  sent  out  by  —      A.  By  whom  ? 

Q.  Your  friends  in  Soviet  Russia  ?  A.  Well,  there  were  many 
calls,  Mr.  Berger;  I  do  not  know  which  one  you  mean. 

Q.  In  reference  to  the  call  that  contained  the  words,  sub- 
stantially, to  the  effect  that  the  bourgeoisie  must  be  disarmed  and 
the  proletariat  armed.  That  is  the  one  that  refers  to  all  the 
workers  of  the  world,  does  it  not?  A.  Well,  Mr.  Berger,  why 
should  we  discuss  it  ?  I  really  do  not  know.  It  is  something  T 
cannot  discuss. 

Assemblyman  Burr. —  May  I  ask  a  question? 
The  Chairman. — Yes. 

Mr.  Burr. —  Did  Mr.  Walsh  accept  your  invitation  to  become 
your  counsel? 

The  Witness, — Yes. 

Mr.  Burr. —  Did  he  accept  that  invitation  ? 

The  Witness. — Yes. 


114 

By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  And  in  what  particular  matter  was  that  ?  A.  In  the  matter 
of  this  Committee,  and  in  general. 

The  Attorney-General. —  You  mean  by  that  as  to  your  rights 
before  the  Committee? 

The  Witness.—  Yes. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Did  he  give  you  any  opinion  on  the 
subject?  A.  Yes,  he  expressed  it. 

The  Attorney-General. — Any  written  opinion? 
The  Witness. —  No,  no  written  opinion. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Was  the  subject  similar  to  that  dis- 
cussed by  Mr.  Justice  Greenbaum,  discussed  with  him  ?  A.  Yes. 

The  Chairman. —  Well,  I  suppose  this  power  that  you  have 
here  from  your  so-called  government,  is  general  in  its  scope,  is  it 
not  ?  That  is,  you  are  largely  acting  under  your  own  judgment  ? 

The  Witness. —  I  do  not  understand. 

The  Chairman. —  I  say,  you  are  largely  acting  under  your  own 
judgment  ?  A.  Yes. 

The  Chairman. —  The  general  instructions  that  you  have  is  to 
create  a  sentiment  in  this  country  favorable  to  the  peculiar  form 
of  government  that  there  is  in  Russia  ?  A.  Yes. 

The  Chairman. — And,  of  course,  you  put  that  forward  in  its 
most  attractive  way?  A.  Yes. 

By  Mr.  Berger : 

Q.  You  said  that  you  did  not  send  any  greetings  to  this  con- 
vention of  the  Communist  party;  is  that  right?  A.  I  say  maybe 
I  have  sent  them,  lout  if  I  sent  them  it  was  only  in  answer  to  some 
sort  of  greetings  from  them. 

Q.  You  do  not  recall  what  the  substance  of  that  greeting  was  ? 
A.  I  do  not  recall,  no. 

Q.  But  it  was  substantially  an  expression  of  sympathy  and 
approval  with  the  ideas  of  the  Communist  party  ?  A.  Probably 
—  no ;  general  thanks  for  their  greetings,  or  a  wish  for  their  suc- 
cess. 


115 

Q.  You  expressed  a  hope  that  they  would  be  successful  in  their 
endeavors?  A.  Probably. 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

•  Q.  Well,  you  would  expect  to  get  help,  in  your  cases,  from  the 
Communist  party,  would  you  not,  Mr.  Mai-tens  ?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  would  not  expect  any  help  from  them?    A.  No. 

Q.  You  would  expect  sympathy  from  them  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  if  you  expected  to  find  sympathy  anywhere  in  this 
country,  it  would  be  through  that  party  and  from  them?  A. 
Through  every  party  I  work  with,  their  sympathies  and  help. 

Q.  I  mean  the  sympathies  of  the  Communist  party.  A.  The 
Communist  party  and  Socialists  and  Liberals. 

Q.  And  you  would  expect  to  find  sympathy  from  them  before 
you  would  from  any  other  parties  in  this  country?  A.  No,  I 
have  sympathies  from  many  liberals ;  also  from  the  Socialist  party. 
They  have  on  jnany  occasions  expressed  their  sympathy;  and 
also  from  the  public. 

By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  Who  is  Krasnotf,  in  Soviet  Russia,  or  some  name  approxi- 
mating that  ?  A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Who  is  Voldarski  ?  A.  Voldarski  was  one  of  the  People's 
Commissariat  who  was  assassinated  in  Petrograd. 

Q.  And  he  originally  came  from  Philadelphia,  did  he  not  ?. 
A.  I  don't  know  whether  he  was  in  Philadelphia,  but  I  know  he 
was  in  New  York. 

Q.  Do  you  know  his  other  name  ?    A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Was  it  Goldman  ?    A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Who  was  Shatoff  ?    A.  Chief  of  police  in  Petrograd. 

Q.  And  what  are  his  functions  there?    A.  Chief  of  police. 

Q.  What  are  his  duties  ?  A.  What  the  duties  of  chief  of  police 
are. 

Q.  New  York  City  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  his  police  record  in  New  York 
City?  A!  No. 

Q.  What  particular  qualifications  did  Shatoff  have?  A.  I 
understand  he  is  a  very  energetic  man  and  is  a  first-class  chief  of 
police  in  Petrograd. 

Q.  He  was  a  member  of  the  I.  W.  W.  in  this  country,  was  he 
not  ?  A.  Yes,  I  think  he  was. 


116 

Q.  And  you  say  that  he  is  energetic  in  the  carrying  out  of  his 
duties?  A.  Yes. 

The  Chairman. —  Xow,  is  it  tine  that  a  man  can  be  a  citizen  of 
the  Russian  Soviet  Government,  as  it  exists  to-day,  and  retain  his 
citizenship  here  in  the  United  States  at  the  same  time? 

The  Witness. —  Well,  Mr.  Chairman,  you  see  the  situation  is 
this:  During  the  Czar's  government,  a  Russian  citizen  who  be- 
came an  American  citizen  did  not  lose  his  Russian  citizenship. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Is  that  true  now  ? 

The  Witness. —  It  is  not  now.  Every  foreigner  who  came  to 
Russia,  who  settles  in  Russia  and  believes  in  citizenship,  becomes 
a  citizen ;  but  that  does  not  relate  to  our  American  laws.  I  do  not 
know  how  the  situation  will  be  in  America. 

By  Mr.  Berger:  ?•>»   • 

Q.  Now,  just  to  go  back  to  the  Shatoff  matter  for  a  minute. 
Will  you  tell  us  in  detail  what  his  duties  are  in  Petrograd  ?  A.  I 
do  not  know  what  his  duties  are. 

Q.  Well,  you  are  pretty  well  informed  on  conditions  there,  are 
you  not?  A.  Certain  y.  As  far  as  I  know,  Mr.  Shatoff  is  a  very 
good  chief  of  police.  He  suppressed  every  crime  in  Petrograd. 
Petrograd  is  now  the  safest  city  in  the  world.  American  people 
coming  from  Petrograd  say  it  is  much  safer  than  New  York, 
Chicago,  or  other  American  cities ;  and  they  claim  it  is  due  to  the 
energies  of  Shatoff. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  particularly  safe  for  the  so-called  counter  revo- 
lutionists there?  A.  Absolutely. 

Q.  What  did  he  do  to  the  counter  revolutionists  to  make  it  so 
safe  for  them?  A.  We  have  our  regular  court  proceedings  and 
every  criminal  caught  in  Russia  is  tried  and  given  every  opportu- 
nity to  defend  himself;  so  they  are  not  killed  or  hanged,  as  you 
imagine,  without  a  trial.  They  are  tried  in  a  very  regular  way, 
and  if  they  are  executed,  it  is  for  something  very  substantial. 

By  the  Chairman : 

Q.  How  are  the  courts  created  ?  A.  The  courts  are  created  by 
elections.  The  judges  are  elected. 


117 

By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  Arc  they  executed  for  crimes  other  than,  murder  ?  A.  Plot- 
ting against  the  government,  treachery  and  those  kinds  of  crimes. 

Q.  And  a  counter  revolution  is  a  crime  punishable  by  death,  is 
it  not?  A.  A  counter  revolution  is.  There  are  all  kinds  of 
penalties. 

Q.  You  mentioned  that  as  among  the  crimes  ?  A.  No,  I  did 
not,  Mr.  Berger.  A  counter  revolution  is  —  there  are  thousands 
of  crimes  —  a  counter  revolution  may  consist  of  assassinating 
any  one  of  the  People's  Commissars;  or  a  counter  revolutionary 
net  may  consist  of  profiteering,  or  something  of  that  kind.  For 
one  crime  the  penalty  may  be  one  or  two  years  in  prison,  or  may 
be  a  month  or  two. 

Q.  What  was  the  particular  crime  of  the  1,500  Commissars 
who  were  executed?  A.  Treachery. 

Q.  What  kind  of  treachery '.  A.  Giving  information  to  the 
onemy,  chiefly. 

Q.  Well,  not  all  of  them  did  that  ?  A.  Chiefly,  I  don't  know 
every  case,  Mr.  Berger. 

Q.  Some  of  them  merely  spoke  and  agitated  against  the  Bol- 
sheviki  ?  A.  No,  for  speaking  and  agitating  nobody  was  executed 
in  Soviet  Russia. 

Q.  Will  you  identify  the  Mr.  Frank  P.  \Valsh  you  refer  to? 
Which  Mr.  Frank  P.  Walsh  was  that?  A.  Will  I  identify  him? 

Q.  Yes  so  that  we  know  who  it  was.  A.  I  cannot  understand 
you. 

Q.  Where  is  his  office?     A.  Somewhere  down  town. 

Q.  In  New  York  City?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  has  he  any  official  position  of  any  kind  that  vou  know 
«f?  A.  No. 

Q.  You  don't  know  whether  he  has  or  not  ?    A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  he  did  have  any  official  position? 
A.  I  know  he  was  the  past  several  \ears  the  head  of  a  committee 
in  Congress  to  investigate  the  trusts  here  in  America,  that  I  know. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  same  Mr.  Walsh  who  was  on  the  War  Labor 
Board  ?  A.  That  is  right. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Mr.  Chairman,  I  have  been  so  occu- 
pied since  the  former  hearing  that  I  have  not  had  time  to  go  over 
the  record  of  questions  which  "were  asked  Mr.  Martens  and  which 
he  has  declined  to  answer.  I  think  we  can  save  time  if  we  take 


118 

our  recess  at  this  point  and  in  the  meantime  those  questions  will 
be  prepared. 

The  Chairman. —  Will  it  be  agreeable  to  you,  Mr.  Martens,  to 
be  back  here,  say  at  two  o'clock  ( 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman. —  Then  we  will  take  a  recess  now  until  two 
o'clock  this  afternoon. 

(Whereupon  at  12 :15  p.  M.  the  committee  took  a  recess  to  two 
o'clock  of  the  same  day.) 


AFTER  RECESS 

(Prior  to  the  open  session,  the  Committee  held  an  executive 
session. ) 

The  Committee  reconvened  at  3  :30  P.  M. 

LUDWIG  C.  A.  K.  MARTEXS,  resumed,  and  testified  as  follows : 
By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Mr.  Martens,  you  were  served  with  a  subpoena  duces  tecum 
to  produce  certain  documents  in  your  possession.  Do  you  remem- 
ber when  that  was  ?  A.  Here  is  the  subpoena  here. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  me  when  that  was  served  upon  you  ?  A.  The 
14th  day  of  November. 

Q.  1919  ?     A.  1919,  yes. 

•Q.  And  in  pursuance  of  the  subpoena,  you  did  produce  the 
check  book?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  produce  the  bank  books  ?  A.  No,  the  check  books 
contain  everything. 

Q.  You  were  asked  to  produce  books  of  account.  Have  you 
produced  any  books  of  account  ?  A.  No,  but  I  can  produce  them 
at  any  moment. 

Q.  You  can  produce  those  and  will  produce  them?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  were  asked  to  produce — that  is,  you  were  subpoenaed  to 
produce,  letters  and  other  papers  received  by  you  and  your  Bureau 
from  Soviet  Russia  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Have  you  produced  any  of  such  letters  or  papers?  A.  No, 
I  did  not. 


119 

Q.  Did  you  have  letters  and  papers  in  your  possession,  from 
Soviet  Russia,  at  the  time  of  the  service  of  this  subpoena?  A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  have  them  yet  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  will  you  now  produce  them  ?    A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Why? 

The  Witness. — Mr.  Chairman,  allow  me  to  make  a  statement  in 
connection  with  this  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  Q.  Yes,  I  have  asked  you  why  .pur- 
posely in  order  to  give  you  an  opportunity  to  make  a  statement. 

The  Witness. — I  desire  to  state  the  reasons  why  I  decline  to 
produce  my  correspondence  with  the  government  of  Soviet  Russia 
and  to  answer  any  questions  relating  to  the  same. 

I  am  the  duly  accredited  representative  of  the  de  facto  govern- 
ment of  Soviet  Russia.  A  de  facto  government  has  been  defined 
as  "  such  as  exists  after  it  has  expelled  the  regularly  constituted 
authorities  from  the  seats  of  power  in  the  public  offices  and 
established  its  own  functionaries  in  their  places,  so  as  to  represent 
in  fact  the  sovereignty  of  the  nation."  (Moore's  Digest  of  Inter- 
national Law,  Volume  1,  page  44,  quoting  from  Williams  against 
Bruffy,  96  U.  S.  176,  pages  185-186.)  It  is  further  said  by  the 
same  authority  that  a  de  facto  government  enjoys  "  the  rights  and 
attributes  of  sovereignty  .  .  .  independently  of  all  recog- 
nition." (Moore's  Digest,  Vol.  1,  page  72.)  Now,  it  is  the 
accepted  principle  of  International  Law  that  the  correspondence 
between  a  foreign  government  and  its  representative  is  privileged. 
I  have  applied  to  Justice  Greenbaum  of  the  New  York  Supreme 
Court  for  relief.  I  have  read  in  the  newspapers  that  my  applica- 
tion has  been  denied,  but  as  far  as  I  know  no  copy  of  the  order 
denying  my  application  has  been  served  upon  my  counsel.  As 
soon  as  we  are  served  with  a  copy  of  the  order  of  Judge  Green- 
baum we  intend  to  take  an  appeal  from  his  order. 

I  have  answered  all  questions  pertaining  to  my  own  activity 
within  the  State  of  New  York;  I  have  produced  all  my  books  and 
correspondence,  although  I  might  have  claimed  privilege  under 
the  principles  of  International  Law.  But,  to  quote  the  language 
of  the  late  Secretary  of  State  Hay,  in  a  similar  matter,  a  repre- 
sentative of  a  foreign  government  "  cannot  be  required  to  divulge 
information  which  came  to  him  in  his  official  capacity,  for  that 
is  the  exclusive  property  of  his  government."  (Moore's  Digest  of 


120 

International  Law,  Vol.  r»,  pag<->  M  *">.  quoting  from  Secretary 
Hay's  letter  dated  April  17,  1801),  in  the  matter  of  Consular  Agent 
Clancy.) 

I  desire  to  emphasize  once  more  that,  the  reason  I  decline  to 
answer  is  nol  that  I  have  anything  to  conceal  but  as  a  matter  of 
principle;  I  have  no  authority  to  divulge  the  contents  of  my  cor- 
respondence with  my  government. 

By  the  Attorney  General : 

Q.  Was  the  paper  you  have  just  read  prepared  by  your  coun- 
sel? A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  prepared  for  the  purpose  of  presenting  here  as  a  legal 
reason  why  yon  need  not  produce  the  papers?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Mr.  Chairman,  I  ask  that  the  witness 
be  directed  to  produce  the  papers  mentioned  in  the  subpoena,  being 
letters  and  other  papers  received  by  him  and  his  bureau  from 
Soviet  Russia,  and  all  copies  of  letters,  documents  and  other 
papers  sent  to  him  and  his  Bureau  and  now  under  his  control,  by 
Soviet  Russia,  between  the  1st  day  of  January,  1919,  and  the 
date  of  service  of  this  subpoena  —  which  you  said  was  November 
what  ? 

The  Witness. — November  14th. 

The  Attorney  General. — November  14th. 

The  Chairman. —  Now,  Mr.  Martens,  pursuant  to  the  instruc- 
tions of  th?  Committee,  and  in  accordance  with  the  powers  vested 
in  them,  I,  as  Chairman  of  the  Committee,  direct  you  to  produce 
those  papers. 

The  Witness. —  T  am  very  sorry,  Mr.  Chairman,  that  I  have 
to  decline. 

By  The  Attorney-General : 

Q.  My  recollection,  Mr.  Martens,  is  that  you  told  me  the  other 
day,  that  you  had  issued  no  passports  ?  A.  No  sir. 

Q.  And  you  now  say  the  same,  that  you  have  issued  no  pass- 
ports ?  A.  No.  sir. 

Q.  Either  to  leave  this  country  —  to  anyone  ?    A.  No  sir. 

Q.  Or  to  enable  any  agent  of  Soviet  Russia  to  get  from  any 
other  country  into  Russia  ?  A.  No,  no  passports. 


121 

Q.  Have  you  issued  any  paper  at  all  which  would  tend  to  assist 
any  representative  of  you  to  get  back  into  Russia?  A.  Yes,  I 
have. 

Q,  And  to  whom  did  you  issue  such  a  paper  ?  A.  I  addressed 
them  mostly  "  To  whom  it  may  concern." 

Q.  And  under  what  date  ?  A.  Different  dates ;  I  don't  remem- 
ber, Mr.  Newton. 

Q.  And  under  what  date?  A.  Different  dates,  I  do  not 
remember. 

Q.  Different  dates  from  January,  1919  ?     A.  From  March. 

Q.  March,  1919?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  To  whom  did  you  deliver  any  one  of  those  papers?  A.  I 
am  sorry  I  have  to  decline. 

Q.  You  know  the  names  of  some  of  the  persons,  at  any  rate,  to 
whom  you  did  deliver  those  papers  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  could  give  the  Committee  the  name  of  the  person 
if  you  desired  to  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  I  ask  you  to  give  the  name  of  one  o.r  more  of  those 
persons  to  whom  you  have  delivered  such  a  paper  since  March, 
1919.  A.  I  have  to  decline  for  the  same  reason. 

Mr.  Newton. —  I  ask  the  Chairman  to  direct  the  witness  to 
answer  the  question. 

The  Chairman. —  Under  the  same  instructions  from  the  Com- 
mittee the  Chair  directs  you  to  answer  the  question  of  the  Attor- 
ney-General. A.  I  decline. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Will  you  tell  me  about  how  many  such  papers  you  have 
delivered  since  March,  1919,  Mr.  'Martens  ?  A.  Five  or  six. 

Q.  And  you  don't  call  such  a  paper  a  passport  ?    A.  No,  I  don't. 

Q.  What  do  you  call  it  ?     A.  A  reference  letter. 

Q.  Reference  letter  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  you  testified  as  I  recall  it  that  there  were  certain 
papers  or  credentials  delivered  to  you  from  the  Russian  Soviet 
Government,  delivered  personally  to  you  in  New  York  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  By  messenger?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  first  of  those  papers,  as  I  recall  your  testimony,  was 
about  the  middle  of  March,  1919  ?  A.  Yes,  sir,  that  is  right. 

Q.  And  they  were  your  —      A.  Official  credentials,  yes,  sir. 


122 

Q.  --  official  credentials  advising  you  that  you  had  been  selected 
i)v  the  Soviet  .Russian  Government  as  their  representative  in  this 
country  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  name  of  the  messenger  who  delivered  the 
paper  to  you  'I  A.  Yes,  I  know  him. 

Q.   Well,  who  was  it  ?    A.  I  decline  to  answer. 

Q.  The  papers  were  delivered  here  in  New  York  (    \.   Yes,  sir. 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  ask  the  Chairman  to  instruct  the 
witness  to  answer  the  question. 

The  Chairman. —  Under  the  authority  conferred  on  me  ;<- 
Chairman  of  the  Committee,  I  instruct  you  to  answer  the  question, 
Mr.  Martens. 

The  Witness. —  I  decline,  Mr.  Chairman. 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  And  is  the  reason  why  you  decline  to  give  the  name  of  the 
messenger  substantially  the  reason  that  you  have  read  into  the 
record  tins  afternoon  \  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  to  cover  it  once  for  all,  that  is  substantially  your  reason 
for  declining  to  answer  any  of  the  questions  that  you  decline  to 
answer  here '(  A.  That  is  the  only  reason,  Mr.  Attorney-General. 

Q.  That  is  the  only  reason  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

(Q.  I  think  I  asked  you  the  other  day  if  you  could  produce 
those  credentials.  A.  As  a  matter  of  fact  I  have  produced  a  copy 
to  Mr.  Berger  when  I  was  questioned  in  his  office. 

Q.  You  did  produce  that '(    A.  Yes,  sir,  a  photographic  copy. 

Q.  Well,  that  is  not  before  this  Committee.  You  are  willing 
to  produce  a  copy  of  those  credentials  here  to  this  Committee '( 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  them  with  you  so  that  they  can  be  marked  in 
evidence  now  ?  A.  No,  I  have  not  them. 

Q.  How  long  would  it  take  you  to  get  them?  A.  Oh,  an.  hour 
I  suppose,  or  two,  I  could  send  it  tonight,  Mr.  Newton,  if  you 
like. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Well,  I  don't  like  to  have  a  paper 
marked  in  evidence  which  you  do  not  identify  here,  because  1 
don't  want  to  take  chances.  Possibly  we  can  send  over  to  Mr. 
Berger' s  office  an;l  you  can  recognize  the  photograph  if  it  i-  pro- 
duced here. 


123 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  I  gave  to  Mr.  Berger  one  copy. 

The  Attorney-General. —  Well,  we  will  send  over  and  see  if 
we  can  get  it. 

(A  messenger  was  sent  over  to  Mr.  Berger's  office,  51  Chambers 
street,  to  procure  the  copy  referred  to.) 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Now,  you  testified,  as  I  recall  it  that  from  time  to  time 
you  are  now  receiving  communications  from  Soviet  Russia  in  the 
form  of  letters  and  other  documents,  by  special  messenger?  A. 
Yes,  sir,  from  time  to  time. 

Q.  And  about  how  many  of  those  communications  or  docu- 
ments have  you  received  since  you  received  your  official  notifica- 
tion of  your  appointment  or  designation  ?  A.  You  mean  by  means 
of  messengers  ( 

Q.  Yes.     A.  About  ten  times. 

Q.  And  have  you  copies  of  all  the  communications  and  letters, 
or  originals  or  copies  of  all  the  communications?  A.  I  keep  only 
official  communications. 

Q.  You  keep  only  official  communications,  and  were  there  ten 
of  those  £  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Those  you  have  in  your  possession  now  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  can  produce  them  here  if  you  have  a  mind  to  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  Now,  will  you  produce  those  papers?  A.  No,  I  decline  to 
produce  them. 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  ask  the  Chairman  to  direct  the  wit- 
ness to  produce  those  ten  communications  to  which  he  refers  in 
his  testimony. 

The  Chairman. —  1  direct  the  witness  to  produce  them,  and 
each  of  them. 

The  Witness. —  I  decline,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Chair  directs  the  witness  to  produce  the 
papers  referred  to  by  the  Attorney-General,  and  each  of  them. 

The  Witness. —  I  decline,  Mr.  Chairman. 


124 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  And  they  are  in  the  form  of  letters  and  other  documents? 
A.  In  the  form  of  letters. 

Q.  In  the  form  of  letters  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  those  ten  communications  all  received  by  special 
messenger?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  The  same  messenger,  or  different  messengers  ?  A.  Different 
messengers. 

Q.  Were  any  two  of  them  received  bv  the  same  messenger? 
A.  I- 

Q.  Delivered,  I  mean.  Did  you  receive  them  from  the  same 
messenger,  any  two  of  them  ?  A.  "No. 

Q.  Can  you  give  the  names  of  the  ten  messengers  who  delivered 
the  messages?  A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  letters  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  You  could  not  give  the  names  of  the  ten  if  you  wanted  to  ? 
A.  The  names  of  most  of  them  I  could  give  you. 

Q.  But  not  all  of  them  ?    A.  No,  not  all  of  them. 

Q.  So  you  could  not  give  the  names  of  the  whole  ten  if  you 
wanted  to  ?  A.  No. 

Q.  Now,  could  you  give  the  names  of  any  of  the  ten  ?  A.  I 
decline  to. 

Q.  Could  you  ?    A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Now,  I  ask  you  to  give  me  the  name  of  one  of  them  ?  A.  I 
decline. 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  now  ask  the  Chairman  to  instruct 
the  witness  to  answer  the  question. 

The  Chairman. —  I  so  instruct  the  witness. 
The  Witness. —  I  decline,  Mr.  Chairman. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Now,  Mr.  .Martens,  do  these  ten  letters  that  were  delivered 
to  you,  as  you  have  described,  contain,  in  any  one  of  them  —  did 
any  one  of  them  contain  money  from  the  Russian  government  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  they  all  contain  money  ?    A.  Not  all,  no. 

Q.  How  many  of  them  did  contain  money  from  your  govern- 
ment, how  many  of  the  ten  ?  A.  I  think  five. 


125 

Q.  Now,  can  you  give  me  the  names  of  any  one  of  the  five 
messengers  who  delivered  money  to  you  from  your  government  ? 
A.  I  could,  yes. 

Q.  Will  you  give  me  the  name  of  one  messenger  who  delivered 
money  to  you  from  the  Russian  government  ?  A.  I  decline. 

TheAttorney-General. —  I  ask  the  Chairman  to  instruct  the 
witness  to  answer  the  question. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Chair  instructs  you  to  answer  the 
question. 

The  Witness. —  I  decline,  Mr.  Chairman. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Those  deliveries  were  all  made  since  March,  1919  ?  A.  Yes, 
sir,  Mr.  Newton. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  send  a  report  to  your  government  of  the  method 
of  the  expenditures  of  any  of  the  moneys  that  you  receive  from 
them?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  a  written  report  ?    A.  A  written  report,  yes. 

Q.  Do  you  keep  a  copy  of  those  reports  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  could  produce  a  copy  of  those  reports  if  you  were 
inclined  to '{  A.  Yes,  I  could. 

Q.  Will  you  produce  any  one  of  them  to  the  Committee?  A. 
I  decline. 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  ask  the  Chairman  to  instruct  the 
witness  to  answer. 

The  Chairman. —  You  are  instructed  to  produce  the  reports 
required  by  the  Attorney-General. 

The  Witness. —  I  decline,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Mr.  Attorney-General,  are  these 
reports  referred  to  in  the  subpoena  ? 

The  Attorney-General. —  Of  course,  the  subponna  is  pretty 
broad,  it  is  general.  He  is  directed  to  produce  all  documents, 
letters  and  other  papers  received  by  him  or  sent  by  him. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  I  see. 

The  Attorney-General. —  "  Documents  and  other  papers  sent  by 
you  or  your  Bureau  to  Soviet  Russia." 


126 

Assemblyman  Mclligott. —  I  see. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Were  any  of  these  reports  sent  to  your  government  by  special 
messenger  ?  A.  Mostly  by  mail. 

Q.  Well,  were  any  of  them  ?  A.  Several  of  them  were  sent  by 
special  messenger. 

Q.  Some  one  or  more  of  them  were  sent  by  special  messenger  ? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  You  know  the  names  of  the  messengers  who  carried  the  re- 
ports ?  A.  Yes,  I  know. 

Q.  What  is  the  name  of  one  of  the  messengers  who  carried  a 
report?  A.  I  decline  to  answer. 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  ask  the  Chairman  to  direct  the  wit- 
ness to  answer. 

The  Chairman. —  The  witness  is  so  directed. 

The  Witness. —  I  decline  to  answer,  Mr.  Chairman. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  You  testified  that  there  was  some  agency  outside  of  the 
United  States  that  transmits  to  you  cerain  letters  from  your  gov- 
ernment.? A.  Yes. 

Q.  That  is  true,  is  it  ?  You  understand  me,  and  that  is  a  fact  ? 
A.  Yes.  " 

Q.  Where  is  that  agency  located  ?  A.  One  of  them  is  in  Sweden. 

Q.  In  Sweden  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  there  more  than  one  ?    A.  Yes,  more  than  one. 

Q.  Where  are  any  of  the  others?    A.  I  decline  to  answer. 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  ask  the  Chairman  to  instruct  the 
witness  to  answer. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Chair  instructs  you  to  answer. 
The  Witness. —  I  decline  to  answer. 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  How  many  such  agencies  are  there  ?    A.  I  decline  to  answer. 
The  Chairman. —  The  Chair  instincts  you  to  answer. 
The  Witness. —  I  decline. 


127 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  person  in  charge  of  any  one  of  those 
agencies  ?  A.  Yes,  I  know. 

Q.  Will  you  name  a  person  that  is  in  charge  of  one  of  the 
agencies  ?  A.  Yes,  I  could. 

Q.  Will  you  ?  A.  There  is  one,  Mr.  Strom,  a  member  of  the 
Swedish  Parliament. 

Q.  That  is  the  Swedish  agency  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  part  of  Sweden  ?    A.  Stockholm. 

Q.  Can  you  give  us  a  better  address  than  that  ?  A.  No,  he  is 
well  known  in  Stockholm ;  simply  address :  "  Mr.  Strom,  Stock- 
holm." ..  .  _, 

Q.  He  is  an  official?  A.  Yes,  he  is  an  official  -representative 
of  the  Soviet  Government  in  Sweden. 

Q.  Do  you  address  him  as  "  Consul  "  or  "Ambassador?  "'  A. 
A  representative. 

Q.  Representative?     A.  Yes. 

Q.  Now,  do  you  know  the  name  of  any  person  who  is  in  charge 
of  any  other  agency,  through  whom  you  send  or  receive  communi- 
cations from  Soviet  Russia  ?  A.  Yes,  I  know. 

Q.  And  will  you  give  me  the  name  of  such  persons?  A.  I 
could. 

Q.  You  said  you  could.    Now,  will  you  ?    A.  No,  sir;  I  decline. 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  ask  tho  Chairman  to  direct  the 
witness  to  answer. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Chair  directs  the  witness  to  answer  the 
last  question  and  give  the  names  requested  by  the  Attorney-Gen- 
eral. What  is  your  answer  ? 

The  Witness. —  I  decline,  Mr.  Chairman. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Mr.  Attorney-General,  there  is  a 
question  in  the  minds  of  some  of  the  members  of  the  Committee 
as  to  whether  the  government  of  .Sweden  recognizes  Soviet  Russia, 
the  present  form  of  government,  the  alleged  form  of  government, 
of  Soviet  Russia. 

The  Witness. —  I  did  not  get  that. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Does  Sweden  recognize  the  present 
form  of  government  —  alleged  form  of  government,  in  Russia  ? 

The  Witness. — Well,  in  Sweden  there  is  an  official  representa- 
tive of  the  Soviet  Government,  who  is  at  the  present  time  a 
member  of  the  Swedish  Parliament. 


128 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  But  is  he  accredited  from  Soviet 
Russia  to  Sweden  and  recognized  as  a  representative  —  a  diplo- 
matic representative  ? 

The  Witness. —  Not  in  the  usual  sense. 
Assemblyman  McElligott. —  What  is  thai  '. 
The  Witness. —  Not  in  the  usual  sense. 
Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Not  in  the  usual  sense  ? 
The  Witness. —  No. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. — And  this  individual  is  a  member 
of  the  Swedish  Parliament,  is  he  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  And  he  himself  is  an  official  of 
the  Government  of  Sweden,  is  he  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  he  is  a  member  of  the  Sweden  Parliament. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  He  could  not  act  both  as  a  member 
of  the  Swedish  Parliament  and  as  a  representative  of  the  Russian 
government,  could  he? 

The  Witness. —  Yes. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  He  could  ? 

The  Witness.—  Yes. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  Responding  to  both  governments  ? 

The  Witness. —  No.  A  member  of  parliament  does  not  take 
part  in  any  government. 

Assemblyman  McElligott. —  T  fail  to  see,  Mr.  Martens,  how  he 
could  serve  two  masters. 

The  Witness. —  Especially  if  he  wants  to  make  out  as  his 
master's  friend  —  why  not  ? 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  Is  there  any  one  of  the  persons  who  delivered  money  to  you 
from  Soviet  Russia  now  in  the  United  States,  to  your  knowledge  ? 
A.  Not  to  my  knowledge. 


129 

Q.  Are  there  any  of  the  messengers  who  delivered  any  of  the 
messages  from  the  Russian  government  to  you  now  in  the  United 
States,  to  your  knowledge  ?  A.  I  decline  to  answer. 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  ask  the  Chairman  to  direct  the  wit- 
ness to  answer. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Chair  so  directs. 
The  Witness. —  I  decline  to  answer. 
By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Are  there  any  messengers  to  whom  you  have  delivered  mes- 
sages to  your  government,  or  to  be  delivered  to  your  government, 
now  in  the  United  States,  to  your  knowledge?  A.  Not  to  my 
knowledge. 

Q.  You  testified  at  a  former  hearing  that  the  original  com- 
munications between  you  and  the  Soviet  government  were  kept  by 
you,  but  not  kept  in  your  home  or  your  office  ?  A.  That  is  right. 

Q.  But  that  you  kept  them  in  a  private  place  ?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  Where  are  such  papers  kept  ?    A.  I  decline  to  answer. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Chair  instructs  you  to  answer. 
The  Witness. —  I  decline  to  answer. 
By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  I  show  you  a  paper,  Mr.  Martens,  which  purports  to  be  a 
photographic  copy  of  your  credentials  ?  A.  That  is  right. 

Q.  Is  that  a  correct  representation  of  the  official  paper?  A. 
(Examining.)  Yes,  that  is  correct. 

Q.  That  is  in  Russian?     A.  Yes. 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  offer  it  in  evidence. 
The  Chairman. —  Received. 

(Photographic  copy  of  credentials  of  Mr.  Martens,  referred  to, 
received  in  evidence  and  marked  Exhibit  No.  347  of  this  date.) 

The  Attorney-General. —  I  will  ask  the  witness  to  translate  it 
for  us. 

The  Witness. —  The  translation  is : 

"  Be  it  known  that  the  Russian  citizen,  Ludwig  Christian 

Alexander  Karl  Martens,  who  is  living  in  the  United  States 

5  ! 


130 

of  America,  is  appointed  as  a  representative  of  the  People's 
Commissariat  for  Foreign  Affairs  in  the  United  States  of 
America."  Signed  by  *'  The  People's  Commissionar  for 
Foreign  Affairs,  Chicherine,"  and  "  Secretary  F.  Schcnkin." 

The  Attorney-General. —  Will  you  translate  the  little  heading 
that  is  in  the  corner  of  the  exhibit  ? 

The  Witness. — "  Russian  Socialist  Soviet  Republic,  People's 
Commissariat  for  Foreign  Affairs.  Bureau  of  the  People's  Com- 
missariat. 2d  of  January,  1919,  No.  918.  Moscow,  corner  of 
Spiridonofka  and  Patruardsky  side  street.  Telephone  number 
42996." 

The  Chairman. —  The  document  that  you  have  read  in  evi- 
dence as  your  certificate  of  authority  is  the  only  authority  you 
have  for  acting  and  carrying  on  the  work  you  are  now  carrying  on 
in  the  United  States? 

The  Witness. —  No,  I  have  another  document  authorizing  me 
to  make  contracts,  to  make  payments,  receive  money  and  do  all 
business  concerned  with  Soviet  Russia. 

The  Chairman.—  Who  signed  that  ? 

The  Witness. — Also  the  People's  Commissariat  for  Foreign 
Affairs. 

The  Chairman. — And  have  you  that  paper  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  not  by  me,  but  T  think  T  have  it  in  the 
office. 

The  Chairman. —  You  can  produce  it  ? 
The  Witness. —  Yes. 

The  Chairman. — And  you  will  produce  it  ? 
The  Witness .—  Yes. 

By  Assemblyman  McElligott : 

Q.  Mr.  Martens,  is  there  somebody  besides  yourself  acting  as 
a  representative  from  Russia  in  this  country  ?  A.  Nobody. 

Q.  Is  the  Ambassador  who  is  accredited  from  the  old  govern- 
ment still  acting  in  that  capacitv  in  Washington  ?  A.  Tn  the 
capacity  of  —  what  do  you  mean  ? 


131 

Q.  In  the  capacity  of  Ambassador  as  representing  Russia  ?  A. 
Well,  von  refer  probably  to  Mr.  Bahkmateff,  who  was  previously 
on  the  Russian  Embassy. 

Q.  Yes.  He  is  still  in  Washington,  isn't  he  ?  A.  He  occupies 
that  building  but  that  is  his  only  function. 

Q.  And  he  is  still  in  communication  with  Russia,  isn't  he  ? 
A.  Yes,  I  think  so. 

Q.  And  he  has  access  to  the  Department  of  State  of  this  gov- 
ernment as  representing  the  Russian  government  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  has  he  prevented  you  from  obtaining  recognition  in 
Washington?  A.  I  don't  know  anything  about  that.  Anyhow 
Mr.  Bahkmatieff  does  not  represent  anything  in  this  country. 

Q.   You  have  never  had  any  communication  with  him  ?     A.  No. 

Q.  You  ignore  him  absolutely  ?     A.  Yes. 

Mr.  Stevenson. — You  made  a  demand  on  him  for  $153,000,000  ? 

The  Witness.—  I  did. 

Mr.  Stevenson. —  Which  was  in  his  custody  ? 

The  Witness.— Yes,  $150,000,000. 

By  Assemblyman  McElligott : 

Q.  Did  he  reply  giving  his  reasons  for  not  giving  you  the 
$153,000,000?  A*  No,  he  did  not. 

Q.  But  the  fact  is  that  he  has  possession  of  that  money?  A. 
Yes,  he  has,  and  he  has  spent  it. 

Q.  Spent  it  on  government  work  for  Russia  ?  A.  Spent  it 
mostly  for  paying  salaries  for  his  assistants. 

Q.  Salaries  of  persons  who  represent  Russia  ?  A.  Well,  assist- 
ing him,  doing  nothing. 

The  Chairman. —  I  should  like  to  have  that  other  paper,  Mr. 
Martens,  placed  in  evidence  which  you  say  shows  your  authority. 
You  will  produce  that  and  put  it  in  evidence  at  a  subsequent 
meeting  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  Attorney-General: 

Q.  Mr.  Martens,  have  any  papers  connected  with  your  bureau 
or  with  you  personally  been  removed  recently  from  the  state  of 
New  York  ?  A.  Well,  now  recently  ? 


132 

Q.  Well,  since  we  commenced  examining  you  here?  I  have 
forgotten  how  long  ago  that  was,  but  sometime  in  June,  wasn't  it  ? 
A.  Well,  my  rule  is  Mr.  Newton,  not  to  keep  any  paper  that  I 
don't  want  anybody  to  have  in  the  office,  since  this  raid  on  our 
bureau. 

Q.  My  question  is  if  you  have  sent  out  of  the  jurisdiction  of 
the  State  of  New  York  any  paper  ?  A.  Yes,  I  did. 

Q.  And  where  did  you  send  such  paper  ?  A.  I  decline  to 
answer. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Chair  instructs  the  witness  to  answer. 
The  Witness. —  I  decline  to  answer. 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  You  did  send  them  out  of  the  State  of  New  York,  and  how 
did  you  send  them  out  of  the  State  of  New  York?  A.  Partly 
by  messengers,  partly  by  mail. 

Q.  Yon  know  who  the  messenger  w:;- ,  the  name  of  the  man  who 
took  them  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  same  person  take  all  of  the  papers?  A.  Most  of 
them. 

Q.  You  could  <vive  the  npme  of  the  person  who  was  the  messen- 
g»'r.  if  you  cared  to  i  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Who  was  it  ?     A.  I  decline  to  answer. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Chair  gives  the  same  instructions  to  the 
witness. 

The  Witness. —  T  decline  to  answe".  Mr.  Chairman. 

By  the  Attorney-General : 

Q.  T  think  I  ask.'d  you.  where  those  papers  were.  A.  Yes,  you 
did  ask  me. 

Q.  And  you  declined  to  answer  ?     A.   Yes. 

Q.  And  the  chairman  has  instructs!  you  to  answer  and  you 
then  decline  to  answer  ?  A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  anv  one  of  the  messengers  an  employee  of  your  office? 
A.  No. 

Q.   Or  any  of  them  members  of  your  staff  ?     A.   No. 

O.   DM  you  send  any  o-P  t^ogp  pnn°rs  to  Chicago  ?     A.   No. 

Q.  T  have  not  guessed  the  right  place?    A.    (Laughing)  No. 


133 

Q.  These  papers  that  you  have  sent  out  of  the  jurisdiction  of 
the  State  of  Xew  York  are  subject  to  your  recall,  are  they  not? 
A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  you  have  no.  doubt  that  if  you  should  need  them  and 
want  them,  upon  your  request  they  would  be  brought  back  to  you  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir,  yes. 

By  Assemblyman  McElligott: 

Q.  Are  those  papers  outside  of  the  United  States  or  within  the 
United  States  ?  A.  Within  the  United  States. 

Q.  They  have  not  been  sent  to  another  country  ?    A.  No. 

The  Chairman. —  K\>w,  Mr.  Martens,  can  you  be  here  to-mor- 
row morning  at  10.30  o'clock? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  Mr.  Chairman. 

The  Chairman. —  And  you  will  bring  with  you  that  other  paper 
that  is  to  be  placed  in  evidence  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman. —  Then  we  will  advise  you  tomorrow  morning 
what  action  the  Committee  will  take. 

Mr.  Clark,  you  can  attend  here  tomorrow  morning  at  10.30? 
Mr.  Clark.—  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman. —  And  Mr.  Xuorteva,  you  will  attend  here  to- 
morrow morning  at  10.30? 

O  »  . 

Mr.  Xuorteva. —  Yes,  sir. 

The  Chairman. —  The  Committee  stands  adjourned  until  10.30 
o'clock  tomorrow  morning. 

(Whereupon  at  4.10  p.  m.  the  meeting  recessed  to  Friday  at 
10.30  a.  m.,  December  12th,  1010). 


134 


MEETING  OF  JOINT  LEGISLATIVE  COMMITTEE  OF  THE 

STATE  OF  NEW  YORK  TO  INVESTIGATE 
SEDITIOUS  ACTIVITIES 


CITY  HALL,  CITY  OF  NEW  YORK, 

FRIDAY,  December  12,  1919. 

The  Committee  met  pursuant  to  recess  (11:15  A.  M.) 

Present  : 

Assemblyman  Martin,  Vice-Chairman; 
Assemblyman  McElligott, 
Senator  Walters, 
Assemblyman  Pellett, 
Assemblyman  Burr. 

A  ppearances  : 

Hon.  Charles  D.  Newton,  Attorney-General ; 

Hon.  Samuel  A.  Berger,  Deputy  Attorney-General; 

Archibald  E.  Stevenson,  Esq.,  Associate  Counsel. 

Mr.  Charles  A.  Hotaling,  Sergeant-at-Arms. 


The  Chairman. —  Proceed. 

LTJDWIG  C.  A.   K.  MARTENS,  having  been  previously  duly 
sworn,  resumed  the  stand  and  testified  as  follows : 

By  Mr.  Berger : 

Q.  You   agreed  yesterday,   Mr.   Martens,  to  produce   another 
credential  in  addition  to  what  you  have  ?    A.  Yes. 
Q.  Have  you  that?    A.  Yes. 

(Witness  produces  paper.) 

Q.  This  is  a  translation?    A.  Xo,  it  is  a  copy  of  the  original. 
Q.  Was  the  original  in  English  ?    A.  English. 

(Mr.  Berger  hands  credential  to  the  Chairman.) 

Mr.  Berger. —  I  offer  this  in  evidence,  Mr.  Chairman. 


135 

The  Chairman. —  Received. 

(Copy  of  credential  received  in  evidence  and  marked  Exhibit 
Xo.  348  of  this  date.) 

By  the   Attorney-General. —  I    assume   it   may   be   copied   in 
evidence. 

By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  You  do  not  want  that  paper  back,  do  you  ?    A.  No. 
(The  exhibit  referred  to  is  as  follows:) 

"  REPUBLIQUE  RUSSE  FEDERATIVE 

DBS  SOVIETS 
COMMISSARIAT  DU  PEUPLE 

POUR 

LES  AFFAIRES  ETRANGEEES 
Le     25th  May  1919 
No.  534A 
Moscou 
TO1     4-23-65 

To  Whom  It  May  Concern. 

The  People's  Commissariat  for  Foreign  Affairs  of  the 
Russian  Federative  Socialist  Soviet  Republic  hereby  de- 
clares that  citizen  Ludvig  Martens  is  authorized  to  take  in 
charge  and  administration,  in  the  name  of  the  Russan  Fed- 
erative Socialist  Soviet  Republic,  all  movable  and  real  es- 
tates of  the  former  Embassy  and  Consullates  and  all  prop- 
erties on  the  territory  of  the  United  States  of  America  be- 
longing to  the  Russian  Federative  Socialist  Soviet  Repub- 
lic. Citizen  L.  Martens  is  also  entrusted  with  the  right  to 
solicit  and  answer  claims,  within  the  limits  of  the  United 
States  of  America,  in  all  cases  where  material  interests  of 
the  Russian  Federative  Socialist  Soviet  Republic  are  en- 
gaged, to  prosecute  all  civil  and  criminal  cases  on  behalf 
of  the  Russian  Federative  Socialist  Soviet  Republic,  in  tri- 
bunals, courts  and  other  institutions  of  the  United  States  of 
America. 

Citizen  L.  Martens  is  entrusted  to  defray  all  expenses  on 
behalf  of  the  Russian  Federative  Socialist  Soviet  Republic 


n ml  to  receive  all  moneys  claimed  liy  the  Russian  Federative 
Socialist  Soviet  Republic  in  the  United  States  of  America, 
ami  issue  receipts. 

People's  Commissary  for  Foreign  Affairs, 

(Signed)     G.  TCHITCHERIN. 
Seal  of 

the 

People's 
Commissary. 

Secretary 

(Signed)     J.   LEWON. 

I  hereby  testify  that  the  above  is  a  true  copy  of  the  orig- 
inal document. 

New  York,  Dec.  11,  1919. 

(Signed)     S.  NUORTEVA, 
Secretary  of  the  Russian  Soviet  Government  Bureau." 

By  Mr.  Berger: 

Q.  The  paper,  Exhibit  No.  348,  is  a  true  and  correct  copy  of 
a   document  that  you   received   from   Soviet  Russia,   signed  by 
G.  Tehitcherin?    A.  Yes. 
.  Q.  And  is  the  original  in  English,  as  this  is?    A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  this  is  a  true  and  correct  copy  in  every  detail  of  the 
paper  you  received?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  would  you  designate  this,  Mr.  Martens?  A.  Oh,  I 
don't  know  the  exact  term  to  be  used  for  the  paper ;  but  it  is  sup- 
posed to  be  the  power  to  make  all  kinds  of  financial  and  com- 
mercial agreements  in  America. 

Q.  Well,  there  is  nothing  in  this  paper  that  designates  you 
as  an  Ambassador,  is  there  ?  A.  No. 

Q.  Or,  as  a  Consul  or  Vice-Consul  ?    A.  No. 

Q.  Nor  is  there  anything  in  this  paper  that,  on  the  face  of  it, 
clothes  you  with  any  Ambassadorial  powers?  A.  No.  This 
paper  only  refers  to  the  financial  and  economical  matters. 

Q.  Were  there  any  other  papers  that  you  have,  that,  in  your 
opinion,  clothe  you  with  Ambassadorial  powers?  A.  The  only 
paper  was  the  one  yesterday. 

Q.  The  one  that  was  offered  in  evidence  yesterday?  A.  Yes, 
sir. 


137 

Q.  But  outside  of  the  one  that  was  offered  in  evidence  yester- 
day and  this,  you  have  other  credentials?  A.  No. 

Q.  Do  you  know  a  man  named  Nathan  Chabro,  Mr.  Martens  ? 
A.  No,  I  never  met  him,  but  I  know  of  the  existence  of  this  man. 

Q.  You  have  never  met  him  ?  A.  No.  I  do  know  of  his  exist- 
ence, though. 

Q.  Who  is  he  ?    A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Have  you  ever  communicated  with  him  in  any  way?  A. 
No,  I  have  not  communicated,  but  I  have  received  a  letter  from 
him. 

Q.  When  did  you  receive  a  letter  from  him?  A.  About  a 
month  and  a  half  ago,  I  think. 

Q.  Where  is  he  now,  if  you  know  ?    A.  In  Sweden. 

Q.  What  part  of  Sweden?     A.  Stockholm. 

Q.  So  that  all  you  know  about  Nathan  Chabro  is  that  you  are 
informed  that  he  is  in  Sweden  and  that  you  received  a  letter 
from  him  about  a  month  and  a  half  ago  ?  A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  that  all  you  know  about  him?    A.  That  is  all  I  know. 

Q.  You  have  not  changed  your  determination,  Mr.  Martens, 
not  to  answer  the  various  questions  that  were  asked  you  yesterday  ? 
A.  No,  I  have  not. 

Q.  Probably  you  have  been  informed  that  a  copy  of  the  order 
was  served  on  Mr.  Malone  ?  A.  I  was  not  informed.  I  have  not 
seen  Mr.  Malone. 

Q.  I  will  inform  you  of  that  fact  now,  that  he  was  served  with 
a  copy  of  the  order.  A.  My  intention  is  to  appeal. 

Q.  Your  intention  is  to  appeal  from  the  order  of  Mr.  Justice 
Greenbaum?  A.  Yes. 

Mr.  Berger. —  I  ask  that  Mr.  Martens  be  excused  at  this  time. 
I  want  to  call  another  witness. 

The  Chairman. —  The  paper  that  was  introduced  in  evidence 
yesterday,  as  your  certificate  of  office,  is  the  paper  on  which  you 
rely  to  act  as  supposed  Ambassador,  is  it  ? 

The  Witness. —  Yes. 

By  Assemblyman  McElligott: 

Q.  Was  that  received  in  evidence? 

The  Chairman. —  Yes,  that  is  in  evidence. 


138 

The   Witness.-      That  is  the  original  paper. 

The  Chairman.--  Do  you  construe  that  p;i])er  to  be  sufficient  to 
allow  you  to  attempt  to  spread  propagatidp  to  influence  public 
opinion  so  as  to  hrin»;  pressure  on  the  authorities  at  Washington 
to  recognize  the  Government? 

The  Witness.—  Well,    yes,    the    paper    is    sufficient    for    my 

activities. 

The  Chairman. —  For  your  activities? 

The  Witness.— Yes. 

The  Chairman. —  In  every  way  ? 

The  Witness.—  Yes. 

The  Chairman. —  All  right. 

Mr.  Berger. —  That  is  all  just  now,  Mr.  Martens. 

The  Chairman. —  Mr.  Martens,  just  a  moment.  If  we  want  to 
examine  you  further  and  we  send  you  word,  I  suppose  you  will  be 
present  ? 

The  Witness. —  Oh,  yes. 


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